Turn the Other Cheek: Islam

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exoflare said:
How would you contend with Jesus’ not defending himself during the crucifixion, though? I know his reasons were special, but aren’t we called to imitate him as closely as possible? Look at how Christians in the Roman empire in the years following that dealt with all the persecution. They did their best to ensure their own safety, but I don’t think they actually fought back, did they?

It’s not that I’m passionately trying to argue this as a dogma or anything. I’m just struggling to figure it all out myself, but I wanted to bring up those points that really made me think…
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exoflare,

These are good questions for sure. With regards to imitation of Christ I agree. We must however remember what his vocation was while he was here. He was slain from the foundation of the world and his death was Gods will.

God has a death prepared for all of us. Some people are called to be martyrs and some to die of disease or accident. Whatever God has prepared we must accept. Jesus commended the faith of the Centurian yet never spoke of him leaving the legion.

My vocation is marriage and I am supposed to defend my family. If I were the Priest who was recently beheaded in Iraq I would be a martyr. But then again, as a husband, if God wants me to be a martyr then it will happen when he wills it.

The CCC sections I posted above are very clear on this. I must be prepared to defend my wife and myself or I am negligent in my vocation. If a rare scenario confronts me that requires a martyr’s death then so be it.

One thing to consider is the idea that most assume that being submissive in the face of danger is a holy act. I question this notions validity when reading the CCC sections posted above. Perhaps it is a Holy act to be a good husband and protect my family and self if needed. Both require bravery and faith.

-D
 
Darrel said:
No Problem,

“Turning the other cheek” is what happens if a person slaps me in the face. Persecution is far more then a slap in the face. If a person tries to kill me and or my family that is much more then a slap.

** If I am placed in a situation where I have to defend my own life or the lives of my family members, I am allowed to kill the agressors if I am forced too. I also have a right to protect the innocent and my country by lethal means if needed.**

-D
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I agree with you and the CCC 100%.

A couple things to consider:
  • If a man allows an attacker to kill him, subsequently allowing the attacker to kill his family, wouldn’t that man be almost as culpable as the attacker for the murder of his family, in the Eyes of God, since he failed to protect them? ( or at least try to protect them )?
  • Scripture also tells us that our bodies are Temples of the Holy Spirit. Aren’t we obliged, by that Same Spirit, to protect it from all harm?
    PAX,
Jullien
 
Another point:
If God willed that all Christians “Turn the other Cheek”, allowing murderers to kill us, Christianity would have died out long ago with the martyrs.
PAX,

Jullien
 
Mr_Jullien said:
Another point:
If God willed that all Christians “Turn the other Cheek”, allowing murderers to kill us, Christianity would have died out long ago with the martyrs.
PAX,

Jullien
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Oh ye of little faith. 😛

It was such a tactic which conquered the Roman Empire. 👍

Pax
 
Darrel said:
Then why does the CCC say it’s lawful for me to defend myself if needed?

-D
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Again, I’m only asking for learning’s sake. Don’t think I’m trying to prove somebody wrong or be dogmatic here. I’m trying to sort this out just like everyone else.

The main thing I’m wondering is why the Christians of the Roman empire seem to have never used any counter-aggression in defending themselves. I guess maybe they did but people found the martyr accounts more noteworthy and they became more famous?
 
chrisb said:
Oh ye of little faith. 😛

It was such a tactic which conquered the Roman Empire. 👍

Pax
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Actually, tactics never crossed my mind until I saw you post.
I was looking at it (or believed I was) from a logical standpoint.

PAX,

Jullien
 
Salaam Montalban;
Montalban said:
In Christianity we’re told to turn the other cheek. Our ‘neighbour’ is deemed to be anyone we might have an effect on; we are to show love to such.

Against this we have several ideologies that are not so lenient, such as Islam.
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I hope the above is an informed opinion.

Neighbor:
There are a lot of teachings about the neighbor, I bring here two of them which show how in Islam the neighbor is important.

The Prophet (PBUH) said:" None among you will be a truthful believer till he likes for his brother or for his neighbor that which he loves for himself" Sahih Bukhari, #26.

Narrated Ai’cha (RA):" I heard Allah’s Messenger saying: Gabriel advised me persistently about kind treatment towards the neighbor so much that I thought he will confer on him the right of inheritance" Sahih Bukhari, #1511.

Turning the other cheek:
Literally, in Christianity turning the other cheek is not given to the common people. In Islam, turning the other cheek is not literal but has another meaning, and is about people called the servants of Allah (SWT) who are not the common people:” And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, “Peace!”; [025.063] and also, about the righteous: “Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;- [003.134]

Saying “Peace” to the ignorant who disputes you, restraining the anger and pardoning those who hurt you are some of the Islamic ways of turning the other cheek.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
exoflare said:
Again, I’m only asking for learning’s sake. Don’t think I’m trying to prove somebody wrong or be dogmatic here. I’m trying to sort this out just like everyone else.

The main thing I’m wondering is why the Christians of the Roman empire seem to have never used any counter-aggression in defending themselves. I guess maybe they did but people found the martyr accounts more noteworthy and they became more famous?
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My scenarios on self defense are scenarios with a possiblity of survival. The Catholics you speak of had no chance against the Romans even if they banned together. If you had three thousands Catholics right now being hunted by the second Marine division they might try hiding as well.

If not they would be desimated in no time at all. This so called tactic sounds more like “an only chance for survival under persecution”. They had women and children with them, so what else can they do besides a suicide attack? If they did that, they would leave there families behind to the wolves. Correct me if I’m wrong but were the early Catholics in Rome forced underground?

-D
 
" Islam is the religion of tolerance, ease and flexibility, and at the same time, it is the religion of justice. Hospitality is a part of Islaamic good manners, but if the guest is a disbeliever, then the ruling differs according to the different intention of the host and the different types of hospitality he offers him. If his intention is legitimate, based upon his desire to create harmony between himself and the disbeliever, so that he may call him to Islaam and save him from kufr and misguidance, then his intention is honourable."
fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0020111_1.htm
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Joseph_Alison:
Salaam Montalban;
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I don’t accept the Islamic idea of peace (which equals submission)
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Joseph_Alison:
I hope the above is an informed opinion.
Neighbor:
There are a lot of teachings about the neighbor, I bring here two of them which show how in Islam the neighbor is important.

The Prophet said:" None among you will be a truthful believer till he likes for his brother or for his neighbor that which he loves for himself" Sahih Bukhari, #26.
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I am unfamiliar with your referencing system. My hadith has Volume #, Book #, then Number : e.g Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:
So I don’t deal with your quotes directly, but with the hadith that I’m familiar with that are on the subject.
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Joseph_Alison:
Narrated Ai’cha " I heard Allah’s Messenger saying: Gabriel advised me persistently about kind treatment towards the neighbor so much that I thought he will confer on him the right of inheritance" Sahih Bukhari, #1511.
Turning the other cheek:
Literally, in Christianity turning the other cheek is not given to the common people.
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Do you have any evidence for this?
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Joseph_Alison:
In Islam, turning the other cheek is not literal but has another meaning, and is about people called the servants of Allah (SWT) who are not the common people:” And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, “Peace!”; [025.063] and also, about the righteous: “Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;- [003.134]

Saying “Peace” to the ignorant who disputes you, restraining the anger and pardoning those who hurt you are some of the Islamic ways of turning the other cheek.
Click to expand...
The concept of being neighbourly is in Islam. I do not deny it. It differs from Christianity.
A Hadith says…
“Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.”
ISLAM: Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi
If you go to idleb.com/cgi-bin/hadith/hadith.cgi

Second ‘who is my brother’? would be a question to ask (reflecting the question to Jesus of ‘who is my neighbour’)
The next mention of the word ‘brother’ in that Haddith might give you a clue…
“Do not envy one another; do not inflate prices one to another; do not hate one another; do not turn away from one another; and do not undercut one another, but be you, O servants of Allah, brothers.”
That is, a brother, is one who is a co-religionist. This is much more a restricted use then ‘neighbour’ is in the Judeo-Christian sense, where Jesus says ALL men are my brother, not just those that believe as I do.

Again, the next use of the word ‘brother’
“Do not envy one another; do not inflate prices one to another; do not hate one another; do not turn away from one another; and do not undercut one another, but be you, O servants of Allah, brothers. A muslim is the brother of a muslim: he neither oppresses him nor does he fail him, he neither lies to him nor does he hold him in contempt. Piety is right here-and he pointed to his breast three times. It is evil enough for a man to hold his brother muslim in contempt. The whole of a muslim for another muslim is inviolable: his blood, his property, and his honor.”
So, there is no universal in the sense that Jesus used, therefore I am correct in saying that the Muslims do not have the same sense of it.

All quotes from mac.abc.se/home/onesr/ez/hdth/40h-naw_e.html

Thus this modern Islamic advice site…
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?
Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, “This is my brother,” when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000920_5.htm
 
The Koran (5:51) says not to take a Jew as a friend. There are more like this…
Surah Al-'Imran (The Family of Imran)
Ayah [118]
O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.

Surah Al-Ma’idah
Ayah [5]
Made lawful to you this day are AtTayyibat [all kinds of Halal (lawful) foods, which Allah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, etc., milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits, etc.). The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals, etc.) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time, when you have given their due Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girl-friends. And whosoever disbelieves in the Oneness of Allah and in all the other Articles of Faith [i.e. His (Allah’s), Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and AlQadar (Divine Preordainments)], then fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

Surah Al-Ma’idah (The (Dinner) Table)
Ayah [51]
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya’ to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya’, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).

Surah Al-Mujadilah (She Who Pleaded)
Ayah [14]
Have you (O Muhammad ) not seen those (hypocrites) who take for friends a people upon whom is the Wrath of Allah (i.e. Jews)? They are neither of you (Muslims) nor of them (Jews), and they swear to a lie while they know.

Surah Al-Mumtahinah (The Examined One)
Ayah [13]
O you who believe! Take not as friends the people who incurred the Wrath of Allah (i.e. the Jews). Surely, they have been in despair to receive any good in the Hereafter, just as the disbelievers have been in despair about those (buried) in graves (that they will not be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection).

Thus these modern advice sites
It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=69876&ln=eng

Question :
In the Quraan, it says that we can not take the Kuffaar as awliyaa, but what does that mean? I mean, to what degree? Can we do business with them still? If I’m at school, can we play basketball with them? Can we talk to them about basketball and stuff? Can we hang out with them as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves? The reason I ask is because someone I know does hang out with them in this way and it doesn’t affect his beliefs, but I still tell him, “Why don’t you hang out with the muslims instead?” He says that most or many of the Muslims drink and take drugs where they hang out and they have girlfriends and he’s afraid that the sins of the Muslims will lure him, yet he’s sure that the Kufr of the Kaafirs will not lure him because that’s something that isn’t attractive to him. So is hanging out with them, playing sports with them, and talking with them about sports considered as “taking them as awliyaa instead of the believers” keeping in mind that he is doing that for his own eemaan?.
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:
Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=59879&ln=eng
Thus the terms ‘friend’ and ‘neighbour’ whilst they appear in Islam, don’t hold the same meaning. It was for this reason, too, that I reject your salutation of ‘peace’ because in Islam peace means that I, as a non-Moslem must submit to Islam.
 
Salaam Montalban;
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Montalban:
It was for this reason, too, that I reject your salutation of ‘peace’ because in Islam peace means that I, as a non-Moslem must submit to Islam.
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Peace! and you don’t have to submit to anything.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
What an excellent issue that has been raised. Before I make my main point, I think it important to address that the “turn the other cheek” lesson is about being passive. It is about not resorting to the tactics of your accuser/enemy by responding in kind. If a person says I’m evil and slaps me and I respond with evil, I’ve proved their point. If I continue to give them love, I do not prove their point. Like St. Francis said, “Always preach the Gospel. Use words if necessary.”

But to the OP and the issue raised. He may have hit on a major moral principle that is missing from Islam relative to the teachings of Christ. It might be the missing link that allows all the violence and tension to exist in the Muslim world. Think about it. The only unifying force between the Shiites and Sunnis is their hatred of Christians. Once they kill all of us, they will just turn on their Muslem breathren. Very interesting.
 
Darrel said:
My scenarios on self defense are scenarios with a possiblity of survival. The Catholics you speak of had no chance against the Romans even if they banned together. If you had three thousands Catholics right now being hunted by the second Marine division they might try hiding as well.

If not they would be desimated in no time at all. This so called tactic sounds more like “an only chance for survival under persecution”. They had women and children with them, so what else can they do besides a suicide attack? If they did that, they would leave there families behind to the wolves. Correct me if I’m wrong but were the early Catholics in Rome forced underground?

-D
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I think they were. And good points you’ve raised, here. I’m starting to understand just how unique the situation in Rome was… it’s more akin to the Christians in Saudi Arabia or China nowadays where being “passive” is their only option.
 
exoflare said:
I think they were. And good points you’ve raised, here. I’m starting to understand just how unique the situation in Rome was… it’s more akin to the Christians in Saudi Arabia or China nowadays where being “passive” is their only option.
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Nice,

I think in the end it’s about each situations best option for the preservation of life.

-D
 
exoflare said:
Not if you want to pay jizya and be a second-class citizen, you dont…
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That’s it exactly. When a Moselm says they wish peace it’s not the same ‘peace’ as Christians understand it. For Moslems it means submission.
 
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