"turning toward the people"

[junostarlighter]

So I’m reading Spirit of the Liturgy by Ratzinger and I was shocked (not because I disagree with him, but rather because I feel like I’ve been fooled) when I found out that Vatican II said nothing of “turning towards the people”…

SO WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED?!?!?!

 

[porthos11]

So I’m reading Spirit of the Liturgy by Ratzinger and I was shocked (not because I disagree with him, but rather because I feel like I’ve been fooled) when I found out that Vatican II said nothing of “turning towards the people”…

SO WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED?!?!?!

Exactly the question on everyone’s mind.

All Vatican II required was that the altar be made free-standing so that it can be incensed all around.

Even the General Instruction still contains phrases like “the priest towards the people and…” implying that prior to that point, he WASN’t facing the people.

The ad-orientem position is still the best expression of the priest’s role theologically and liturgically as opposed to the “facing the people” position.

It also allows the crucifix to be placed in a good position instead of the weird positions today.

 

[japhy]

So I’m reading Spirit of the Liturgy by Ratzinger and I was shocked (not because I disagree with him, but rather because I feel like I’ve been fooled) when I found out that Vatican II said nothing of “turning towards the people”… SO WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED!!!

Join the club.

Seriously, read Sacrosanctum Concilium when you get a chance; it’s the Vatican II Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. It’s an eye-opener, to see what they did call for and what they didn’t call for. Nothing about removing altar rails, turning the priest around, Communion in the hand… plenty about retaining Latin and Gregorian chant.

 

[scylla]

The 60’s happened, no one really paid any attention to Vatican II and they all did what they wanted to do, instead of what they should have done.

We are all tempted to do what we want to do, even Bishops and Priests, many did what they wanted to do instead of seeking what was faithful to do, so we ended up in the mess we have today. It isn’t too bad, as many are realizing that maybe we should read the documents of Vatican II and be faithful to God instead of cultural style.

It might take some time but eventually things will work out.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[John_Lilburne]

So I’m reading Spirit of the Liturgy by Ratzinger and I was shocked (not because I disagree with him, but rather because I feel like I’ve been fooled) when I found out that Vatican II said nothing of “turning towards the people”…

SO WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED?!?!?!

The first document of Vatican II was the Constitution on the Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, which is at vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html . It said:
“25. The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible; experts are to be employed on the task, and bishops are to be consulted, from various parts of the world.”

One of these liturgical books was the Roman Missal. The revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal of 1970 said: “262. In every church there should ordinarily be a fixed, dedicated altar, which should be freestanding to allows the ministers to walk around it easily and Mass to be celebrated facing the people.”

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“299. The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.”

The term “facing” appears 16 times in this 2002 GIRM, in 105, 124, 138, 146, 154, 157, 165, 185, 243, 244, 257, 268 (twice), 286, 299, and 310. The phrase “facing the people” occurs 10 times, and “facing the faithful” once.

 

[benedictgal]

Read “Turning Towards the Lord”, a book that features a foreword by the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. I believe the author’s name is Fr. Ung (it begins with a U and it’s a short last name). I lent it to a priest friend of mine and every Tuesday and Thursday, he celebrates Mass in the manner of facing liturgical East for the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Someone challenged him on the Vatican II issue, and, he quickly neutralized it.

 

[VociMike]

Read this article to learn about a few things that Vatican II never said.

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_1_jan05.asp

 

[rwoehmke]

Does the Pope have the authority to modify what a Council might decide if it is not a doctrinal issue previously approved by a Pope? I must assume that Paul VI had the authority to carry such matters as liturgical practices in any direction he saw fit, whether it went beyond the Council’s decisions or not. We may not like it, but the end of the Council certainly did not signify that the Church would not continue to move beyond even it’s decisions.

 

[benedictgal]

Does the Pope have the authority to modify what a Council might decide if it is not a doctrinal issue previously approved by a Pope? I must assume that Paul VI had the authority to carry such matters as liturgical practices in any direction he saw fit, whether it went beyond the Council’s decisions or not. We may not like it, but the end of the Council certainly did not signify that the Church would not continue to move beyond even it’s decisions.

But, if we were to subscribe to your viewpoint, then, we would be having a lot of chaos? Wait, that’s what happened immediately after the Council and that is why we have so many problems some 40 years later. The problem is that no one actually took the time or even bothered to read what the Council really said. They just went by this alleged Spirit of Vatican II.

No. We are governed by the regulatory liturgical documents issued by the Holy See, and, in some cases, decisions made by the local Ordinary, so long as they do not conflict with what Rome has said.

 

[ethelzguy]

The first document of Vatican II was the Constitution on the Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, which is at vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html . It said:
"25. The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible; experts are to be employed on the task, and bishops are to be consulted, from various parts of the world."

One of these liturgical books was the Roman Missal. The revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal of 1970 said: "262. In every church there should ordinarily be a fixed, dedicated altar, which should be freestanding to allows the ministers to walk around it easily and Mass to be celebrated facing the people."

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“299. The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.”

The term “facing” appears 16 times in this 2002 GIRM, in 105, 124, 138, 146, 154, 157, 165, 185, 243, 244, 257, 268 (twice), 286, 299, and 310. The phrase “facing the people” occurs 10 times, and “facing the faithful” once.

hmmmmmmmmm…

 

[japhy]

Read “Turning Towards the Lord”, a book that features a foreword by the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. I believe the author’s name is Fr. Ung (it begins with a U and it’s a short last name).

I think it’s Fr. Uwe Lang.

 

[japhy]

hmmmmmmmmm…

Could you say something please? I can’t infer what this post means.

Update: If you’re commenting on facing the people, the Roman Missal mentions when the priest should face the people and when he should face the altar, which assumes they’re not the same direction. While Mass facing the people is allowed, it a) was not suggested by Vatican II, and b) is not mandatory.

And GIRM 299 is poorly translated in the English GIRM; it makes it sound as if Mass facing is “desirable wherever possible”, when in the Latin GIRM that clause refers back to the altar being freestanding.

 

[FAB]

The first document of Vatican II was the Constitution on the Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, which is at vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html . It said:
“25. The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible; experts are to be employed on the task, and bishops are to be consulted, from various parts of the world.”

One of these liturgical books was the Roman Missal. The revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal of 1970 said: “262. In every church there should ordinarily be a fixed, dedicated altar, which should be freestanding to allows the ministers to walk around it easily and Mass to be celebrated facing the people.”

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“299. The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.”

The term “facing” appears 16 times in this 2002 GIRM, in 105, 124, 138, 146, 154, 157, 165, 185, 243, 244, 257, 268 (twice), 286, 299, and 310. The phrase “facing the people” occurs 10 times, and “facing the faithful” once.

This should clear up the question, but on this site it never will. Although the GIRM was written under the authority of the Second Vatican Council and approved by the Magisterium as the Ordinary form, there are those who just refuse to accept the changes.
There is a revised GIRM to come out, it will be interesting to see how it is accepted.

Peace,
FAB

 

[benedictgal]

I think it’s Fr. Uwe Lang.

Thanks, japhy. I knew that there was a “U” somewhere, I just couldn’t remember.

 

[Titus]

The first document of Vatican II was the Constitution on the Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, which is at vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html . It said:
“25. The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible; experts are to be employed on the task, and bishops are to be consulted, from various parts of the world.”

One of these liturgical books was the Roman Missal. The revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal of 1970 said: “262. In every church there should ordinarily be a fixed, dedicated altar, which should be freestanding to allows the ministers to walk around it easily and Mass to be celebrated facing the people.”

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“299. The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.”

The term “facing” appears 16 times in this 2002 GIRM, in 105, 124, 138, 146, 154, 157, 165, 185, 243, 244, 257, 268 (twice), 286, 299, and 310. The phrase “facing the people” occurs 10 times, and “facing the faithful” once.

Wouldn’t you say that the Mass that was used immediately after the Second Vatican Council would the most faithful to its ideals? That ISN’T the Pauline Mass. That was 5 years after the end of the Council and isn’t the mass referred to in SC. That mass was much more of an organic development rather than the short sharp shock of the 1970 Missal. Of course none of that is anything compared to the devastation wrought by the ICEL. Sad.

 

[Titus]

The first document of Vatican II was the Constitution on the Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, which is at vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html . It said:
“25. The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible; experts are to be employed on the task, and bishops are to be consulted, from various parts of the world.”

One of these liturgical books was the Roman Missal. The revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal of 1970 said: “262. In every church there should ordinarily be a fixed, dedicated altar, which should be freestanding to allows the ministers to walk around it easily and Mass to be celebrated facing the people.”

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“299. The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.”

The term “facing” appears 16 times in this 2002 GIRM, in 105, 124, 138, 146, 154, 157, 165, 185, 243, 244, 257, 268 (twice), 286, 299, and 310. The phrase “facing the people” occurs 10 times, and “facing the faithful” once.

Wouldn’t you say that the Mass that was used immediately after the Second Vatican Council would the most faithful to its ideals? That ISN’T the Pauline Mass. That was 5 years after the end of the Council and isn’t the mass referred to in SC. That mass was much more of an organic development rather than the short sharp shock of the 1970 Missal. Of course none of that is anything compared to the devastation wrought by the ICEL. Sad.

 

[EasterJoy]

This should clear up the question, but on this site it never will. Although the GIRM was written under the authority of the Second Vatican Council and approved by the Magisterium as the Ordinary form, there are those who just refuse to accept the changes.
There is a revised GIRM to come out, it will be interesting to see how it is accepted.

Peace,
FAB

There are a lot of posters on CA who would be entirely docile to the Magesterium…if only it weren’t the Magesterium that we actually have.

 

[nightwalker]

This should clear up the question, but on this site it never will. Although the GIRM was written under the authority of the Second Vatican Council and approved by the Magisterium as the Ordinary form, there are those who just refuse to accept the changes.
There is a revised GIRM to come out, it will be interesting to see how it is accepted.

Peace,
FAB

Perhaps because of things like this: Pope Benedict celebrates Mass Ad Orientem and this denial of an obligation to celebrate facing the people.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How did Pope Benedict XVI say Mass when he was visiting the US. I seem to recall that he faced the people

Also, which direction did Jesus face, when he instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper?

Jim

 

[nightwalker]

Also, which direction did Jesus face, when he instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper?

The same direction as the Apostles, but then again we are dancing on the edge of antiquitarianism here.

And the Pope has celebrated both ways, so if we follow that both should be allowed and supported.