TV: Lost - Season 5

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WOW!!! Well, with the physical introduction to Jacob, it was interesting to see the nuances of how the LOST characters were influenced in their lives by Jacob.

When Jacob was sitting on the beach, eating the fish, I thought he was looking at the Black Rock just off the coast. Yay? Nay?

Was the “Jacob-hater’s” name revealed?

It appears as if the 4 toed statue was a human embodiment of the monster and held the Ankh (ancient Egyptian symbol of life - the king or god holding it has the ability to give or take life to/from lesser mortals) in at least one of his hands.

And what is with Radzinsky’s recent blow-ups? He’s been working 6 years on this. All of a sudden, he’s the brains behind this hatch? I thought he was the Communications guy.

True to it’s form, Lost leaves us with answers to previous questions and new questions to linger until next season…the last season.

aside…Jacob sure did act very Christ-like in all the flash-backs…hmmm.
 
It would be a predestination paradox. I don’t believe our heroes created The Swan, nor do I believe they could have aided in its creation no matter what they did.

A thing cannot be the cause of its own existence, at least, not within our physical universe. We know that The Swan was the cause of our heroes coming to the island, so by necessity, our heroes cannot play a role in the creation of The Swan.

The only exception I can think of is if our heroes originally would have come to the island anyway, through some means that do not rely upon the Swan’s existence… but given the story, that’s not a likely explanation.
 
Also, I posted this in another thread, but it follows the discussions here as well.

They did not reveal the other man on the beach’s name, but I’m going to call him “Esau”.

Parallels:
  1. Jacob was the founder/leader of the Israelites - Jacob is the leader and possible founder of the Others
  2. Jacob and Esau had a rivalry - Jacob and the other man on the beach have a rivalry
  3. Esau vowed to kill Jacob - the other man on the beach vows to kill Jacob
  4. Jacob offered Esau food in the Bible when Esau was starving, and in return made Esau promise Jacob his birthright - Jacob offered the other man food in the Lost finale, which could amount to his way of rubbing salt in an old wound
“Esau” appears to have been plotting Jacob’s death for a long time.

When Locke went down the well at the site of the future Swan, after he was separated from his friends, he saw a ‘vision’ of Jack’s father, Christian Shephard. I believe this man was actually Esau. The Christian Shephard-apparition told Locke that Locke not only had to bring them all back, but that Locke would have to die to do it.

This fits perfectly with Esau’s plans. Since Locke is the current leader of the Others, he is the only one who is allowed an audience with Jacob. Esau knew that Jacob did not have the ability to resurrect the dead, but no one else knew this (although Ricardus/Richard Alpert, who seems to be the most in-the-know, is visibly surprised at Locke’s supposed resurrection.) So Esau used this opportunity to take on the guise of being Locke, and in doing so, guaranteed an audience with his reclusive rival, Jacob.

As to the flashbacks in which Jacob meets with Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Sayid, Hurley and Sun/jin, I’m not sure if I believe that was really Jacob in every instance, or if it was actually the devious Esau. In Sawyer’s flashback, we see Jacob facilitate Sawyer’s vengeful nature by offering him a pen to write the infamous letter. And in Sayid’s flashback, we see him appear to Sayid at the very moment that Charles Widmore’s assasins killed Nadya (which suggests he knew the precise details of how the assasination would take place), yet he did nothing to warn Sayid.
 
Havard said:
Also, I posted this in another thread, but it follows the discussions here as well.

They did not reveal the other man on the beach’s name, but I’m going to call him “Esau”.

Parallels:
  1. Jacob was the founder/leader of the Israelites - Jacob is the leader and possible founder of the Others
  2. Jacob and Esau had a rivalry - Jacob and the other man on the beach have a rivalry
  3. Esau vowed to kill Jacob - the other man on the beach vows to kill Jacob
  4. Jacob offered Esau food in the Bible when Esau was starving, and in return made Esau promise Jacob his birthright - Jacob offered the other man food in the Lost finale, which could amount to his way of rubbing salt in an old wound
“Esau” appears to have been plotting Jacob’s death for a long time.

When Locke went down the well at the site of the future Swan, after he was separated from his friends, he saw a ‘vision’ of Jack’s father, Christian Shephard. I believe this man was actually Esau. The Christian Shephard-apparition told Locke that Locke not only had to bring them all back, but that Locke would have to die to do it.

This fits perfectly with Esau’s plans. Since Locke is the current leader of the Others, he is the only one who is allowed an audience with Jacob. Esau knew that Jacob did not have the ability to resurrect the dead, but no one else knew this (although Ricardus/Richard Alpert, who seems to be the most in-the-know, is visibly surprised at Locke’s supposed resurrection.) So Esau used this opportunity to take on the guise of being Locke, and in doing so, guaranteed an audience with his reclusive rival, Jacob.

As to the flashbacks in which Jacob meets with Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Sayid, Hurley and Sun/jin, I’m not sure if I believe that was really Jacob in every instance, or if it was actually the devious Esau. In Sawyer’s flashback, we see Jacob facilitate Sawyer’s vengeful nature by offering him a pen to write the infamous letter. And in Sayid’s flashback, we see him appear to Sayid at the very moment that Charles Widmore’s assasins killed Nadya (which suggests he knew the precise details of how the assasination would take place), yet he did nothing to warn Sayid.
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Very interesting breakdown Havard. Curious though…if Esau (temp name) took on Locke as his new form, and Locke’s REAL body was still able to be produced, how did Esau assume Christian Shephard’s body and no body was found of Shephard?

Also, you have a hard time believing that it was Jacob and not Esau in some of the flashbacks, but something has to give…can Esau take on someone “else” ONLY if they are dead? Esau couldn’t be Jacob in those flashbacks, because Ben killed (or at least Jacob got stabbed and got kicked into his own fireplace) AFTER those flashbacks occured.
 
3GirlsRUs said:
Me, too!!! I was so so so sad!!!
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Me three and that person was never on my fave characters list. 😦

The other guy’s reaction just totally killed me. I know it’s all fiction but all that desperation followed by all that despair just…wow. 😦

As soon as I saw Frank’s face when he saw what was in the crate…I had just had a hunch that THATwould be inside but I didn’t want to believe it. Just because Frank’s knowledge was so limited, there’s only so much he could see and understand the significance of.

DARNIT though!

SPOILER HIGHLIGHT That means he’s dead for REAL?! Awwww man. I liked Locke. 😦 Or is he…I’m still waiting for to know what made Walt so special too.

Heh…

The Dharma losties didn’t change anything. Not just because they need to make a Season 6… But the Dharma orientation videos help prove it. In more than one of those videos (the Swan video in particular), Chang appears to have no function (by paralysis or amputation we don’t know) in one of his arms! Which is certainly an interesting trait to throw in there…even more so when his arm is perfectly fine in other orientation videos. But Chang’s arm has had people stumped for a good while now and now it looks like we know how it happened.

EDIT: Unless…wait…that was his HAND wasn’t it?

Not to mention that Miles himself witnesses his own departure from the island as an infant…which could be just a plot device and easily ignored. How would Chang have known to send them of the island if he was not warned by the Dharma losties?

“Have any of you thought about the possibility that what you guys are doing is actually the cause of the incident that you’re trying to prevent?”

Just like Miles said. 😃 They are *exactly *where they belong.

Great episode though. Can’t to see the future. 👍
 
Kit15 said:
The Dharma losties didn’t change anything. Not just because they need to make a Season 6… But the Dharma orientation videos help prove it. In more than one of those videos (the Swan video in particular), Chang appears to have no function (by paralysis or amputation we don’t know) in one of his arms! Which is certainly an interesting trait to throw in there…even more so when his arm is perfectly fine in other orientation videos. But Chang’s arm has had people stumped for a good while now and now it looks like we know how it happened.
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I thought that at first. But then when it showed that the bomb hadn’t gone off yet, I realized that Chang only lost his hand because of the electromagnetism released by the drill, not because of the Losties actions. So he could have lost his hand in another version of the time loop, and things could still change.

I am on the side that something is going to change in this round of the time loop. The opening conversation on the beach between Jacob and his enemy foreshadows this. I think there is an element (variable) that is different this time. Could Juliet or Hurley be new to the loop?
 
Havard said:
As to the flashbacks in which Jacob meets with Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Sayid, Hurley and Sun/jin, I’m not sure if I believe that was really Jacob in every instance, or if it was actually the devious Esau. In Sawyer’s flashback, we see Jacob facilitate Sawyer’s vengeful nature by offering him a pen to write the infamous letter. And in Sayid’s flashback, we see him appear to Sayid at the very moment that Charles Widmore’s assasins killed Nadya (which suggests he knew the precise details of how the assasination would take place), yet he did nothing to warn Sayid.
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This is an interesting theory, but why would Esau have to disguise himself? The Losties didn’t know who he was. But I agree that Jacob’s actions in visiting them are mysterious. I viewed the Sayid scene as Jacob saving Sayid. I thought this was odd, since Sayid shoots Ben. Why would Jacob want this to happen? Why did Jacob save Locke, when Locke becomes the tool for Jacob’s destruction? The show is pointing toward Jacob being the force of light, or good. But I don’t think we can assume yet that this is necessarily the case.
 
AnotherChance said:
This is an interesting theory, but why would Esau have to disguise himself? The Losties didn’t know who he was. But I agree that Jacob’s actions in visiting them are mysterious. I viewed the Sayid scene as Jacob saving Sayid. I thought this was odd, since Sayid shoots Ben. Why would Jacob want this to happen? Why did Jacob save Locke, when Locke becomes the tool for Jacob’s destruction? The show is pointing toward Jacob being the force of light, or good. But I don’t think we can assume yet that this is necessarily the case.
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I’m wondering if they are going in a christological direction with Jacob and his nameless adversary. Jacob is a Christ-figure, while his adversary is a Satan-figure. Just as the devil couldn’t kill Christ himself, but rather had to “inspire” others to do so, it is the same with this guy. He cannot kill Jacob himself but must bring Ben in to do it. He even takes the form of Ben’s daughter to tell him to do anything Locke says, which makes his job that much easier.

Look for the Resurrection in Season 6. 😉

Or maybe this is all just wishful thinking… :o

Then I start wondering if all of the mysterious visions the Losties have had of dead people over the past five seasons have really just been this one guy trying to manipulate everyone and lead to this one thing: killing Jacob.

Boy, there sure are a lot of possible theories out there! 🙂 Eight months seems like such a long time to wait.! 😦 :o
 
Joe_5859 said:
I’m wondering if they are going in a christological direction with Jacob and his nameless adversary. Jacob is a Christ-figure, while his adversary is a Satan-figure. Just as the devil couldn’t kill Christ himself, but rather had to “inspire” others to do so, it is the same with this guy. He cannot kill Jacob himself but must bring Ben in to do it. He even takes the form of Ben’s daughter to tell him to do anything Locke says, which makes his job that much easier.

Look for the Resurrection in Season 6. 😉

Or maybe this is all just wishful thinking… :o

Then I start wondering if all of the mysterious visions the Losties have had of dead people over the past five seasons have really just been this one guy trying to manipulate everyone and lead to this one thing: killing Jacob.

Boy, there sure are a lot of possible theories out there! 🙂 Eight months seems like such a long time to wait.! 😦 :o
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I agree that Jacob is a Christ-like figure. When Ben (his former apostle) is killing him, he does not resist and seems to foretell and accept his death. I actually was quite relieved that the human John Locke is actually dead. It annoyed me when it seemed like they were drawing parallels between Locke and Jesus earlier in the season, with Locke seemingly being resurrected. But for some reason, the Jacob/Christ parallels don’t annoy me. Maybe because Jacob does not seem like a mere human, as Locke did. With Locke, I thought they were saying that Jesus created his own hype, the way people sometimes will say. Jacob at this point seems more like a character that is working toward God’s perfection than Locke ever did.
 
I have thought throughout the series they were trying to draw Christological picture…but during the first scene the other night when the enemy of Jacob said, “Do you know how badly I want to kill you?” … I really felt that the enemy is the satan-figure and Jacob is the Christ figure…it really made a ton of sense just with how much we know Satan wants so badly to kill Christ, but he can’t. And then the final scene when Jacob willingly allowed Ben to kill him…it also seemed to point in that direction.

Additionally, I think it’s interesting about the “time warp” but the “what’s happened…happened.” stuff. A few years ago at a daily Mass I attended, the priest was discussing some denominations’ focus on eschatology, etc. and he said that God and Satan exist outside of Time. There is no chronological way to categorize God and Satan and that the battle has already been won. No matter what happens on Earth to us and with us, that will never change and it is our exercise of our Free Will as to which side we ultimately, eternally end up on.

I see a lot of parallels with Lost and also with where it seems to be heading.

But yes…there are many other plausible theories out there. It’s such a great show and it pains me that i will have to wait 8 months for the next season (yeah…I’m a dork like that). 😃
 
OMGOSH I just had a revelation! :eek:

They DID change the past!

Think back… way back to Season 3… when Hurley, Jin, and Sawyer find a van with remains of 3 people. One was wearing a Dharma jumpsuit that said “Roger - Workman” and Sawyer popped open a beer and called the guy “Skeletor”… REMEMBER THAT?!?

THAT WAS HIMSELF (SAWYER)!

In the last episode Sawyer and Sayid are leaving and quickly grab some jumpsuits to “blend in” before they get away - Sawyer grabs Roger’s jumpsuit!

But since they DIDN’T die in that position (in the van) then they DID change the past. If they had sat at the van and not been noticed then they would have died in that location due to the “energy pocket” explosion. But instead Jack was noticed by the Dharma guys, and the gun fight began, and Sawyer was down near the hole when he lost Juliet when the bomb went off… not in the van.

What do you think??? :confused:
 
I suppose the changed where they were…but they still die with the bomb exploding, I would guess, right? I mean, I took the bomb going off at the end to mean that the explosion still happened and they were all still there when it happened. So, whatever happened…still happened. right?
 
Roger “Workman” was Ben’s dad. I think the skeleton in the van, is from when Ben kills his dad in the van, but leaves him there. Richard asks if Ben wants them to go get him and put him with the others, but Ben says no leave him. 🤷
 
I do remember that episode where they showed that Ben had his father in the van and then Ben put the mask on and left his dad there to die…so I do remember that.

but in the finale, we do see Sawyer and Sayid grabbing jumpsuits…
 
No, the van where Sawyer popped the Beer with “Skeletor” was not in the same location as where Ben killed his father (in the open planes - he sent the bus careening down the hill).

When Juliet set off the bomb Sawyer (wearing Roger’s jumpsuit) was not sitting by the bus - he was down near the hole crying because he had just lost her.
 
Joe_5859 said:
Come to think of it, the Island in Lost really is a lot like Narnia in several ways. Does that mean Jacob is like Aslan? :o 😉
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This suggestion of yours is particularly insightful in light of the fact that you made it weeks before season five’s finale revealed Jacob to be a Christ figure.

But Aslan rose from the dead; can you really see that happening with Jacob? They already tricked us with a fake resurrection once. 😦
AnotherChance said:
Plus the whole regular-human-resurrecting thing was disturbing.
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This is an interesting perspective that I need to consider. I felt the opposite about Locke being raised from the dead, and was shocked and mortified to learn that it was a lie forged by an evil being for the execution of his dark purpose.

But if you’re right - and I so hope you are - then maybe there is still hope.
 
Em_in_FL said:
No, the van where Sawyer popped the Beer with “Skeletor” was not in the same location as where Ben killed his father (in the open planes - he sent the bus careening down the hill).

When Juliet set off the bomb Sawyer (wearing Roger’s jumpsuit) was not sitting by the bus - he was down near the hole crying because he had just lost her.
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I thought it was Jack and Sayid that grabbed the jumpsuites. Sawyer, Juliet, and Kate were waiting for them in the middle of the road.

I’m going to have to go watch that episode again, because I only remember one skeleton in the van where Sawyer finds all that beer. Roger is an alcoholic and I remember him offering Ben some beer before Ben kills him.

Either way, I don’t think they changed the future in any meaningful way.
 
Okay I am dizzy enough from reading that but I have one question…

Who is wearing Jack’s father’s shoes? The dead Locke or the alive Locke?
 
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