Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura

[cazayoux]

I have no infallible way of knowing whether or not the canon I accept is 100% correct. Then again, you have no infallible way to know that the claims the RCC makes are true.

Even if the bible was never written, the church would exist.
Even if the bible was never written, Jesus still founded a church. A church protected by the Holy Spirit that would never fail. A church that met in councils to discuss and decide on doctrinal issues. A church that taught authoritatively, orally, and told their students to pass on what they have learned to others so that THEY can teach others. A church that eventually wrote, inspired by the Holy Spirit.
THIS church, that God founded to preach and teach His truth, gathered in council to answer the question of what writings are and are not inspired by God.

My God is SO big, that I believe He can protect the truth.
It’s HIS infallibility, through HIS church, that let’s me KNOW that the canon defined in 382 is 100% correct.

Are you sure that your God is as small as you make him to be able to make that first statement I quoted above.
Do you ACTUALLY believe God didn’t give us a way to KNOW?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

We aren’t discussing infallibility. Someone offered up 2Thess2:15 as a proof text against sola scriptura and it is a very poor proof text.

That infallibility is relevant if we are discussing the council in 382 that defined the table contents of the bible.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

What did the Jews do before the supposed infallible magesterium? Why did God inspire the OT prophets to write scripture when the Jews were without a means of infallibly knowing what was and what wasn’t scripture?

They relied COMPLETELY on their spiritual leaders and their oral tradition.
Remember that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the O.T.
That means everything in Genesis is oral tradition, passed on generation after generation.
Adam, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham … everything we know about them … from tradition handed down orally before Moses wrote it down.

Think about it.

Now … in re-reading my posts, I find I ‘sound’ a bit abrupt.
Please forgive me for this.
I’ll try to do better with my tone.
I find that sometimes I get excited to share, and just come off sounding harsh.
Again, my apologies.

michel

 

[Mannyfit75]

Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura

              By Joel Peters

geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html

Thanks

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have no infallible way of knowing whether or not the canon I accept is 100% correct. Then again, you have no infallible way to know that the claims the RCC makes are true.

We do. Jesus Christ left behind us a Church with authority. Jesus also told us that if there is any disagreements, we take it up to the Church. He didn’t say take up to the Bible.

I am certain that I an a fallible man. Jesus is infallible and he infallibly proclaimed that he will built his Church upon Peter and gave him the keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to Bind and Loose. I do not think the authority of the Church disappear suddenly after the death of the Last Apostle.

He also promised that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church.

What did the Jews do before the supposed infallible magesterium? Why did God inspire the OT prophets to write scripture when the Jews were without a means of infallibly knowing what was and what wasn’t scripture?

The Jews through their High Priest had an authority but it was taken from them when they rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. That authority alone comes from Jesus who them pass it to his Apostles, and from the Apostles to their successors.

 

[SemperReformada]

The Jews through their High Priest had an authority but it was taken from them when they rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. That authority alone comes from Jesus who them pass it to his Apostles, and from the Apostles to their successors.

Having an “authority” is not the same as having an INFALLIBLE authority. Do you believe the Jewish authority was infallible?

 

[SemperReformada]

They relied COMPLETELY on their spiritual leaders and their oral tradition.
Remember that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the O.T.
That means everything in Genesis is oral tradition, passed on generation after generation.
Adam, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham … everything we know about them … from tradition handed down orally before Moses wrote it down.

Think about it.

Now … in re-reading my posts, I find I ‘sound’ a bit abrupt.
Please forgive me for this.
I’ll try to do better with my tone.
I find that sometimes I get excited to share, and just come off sounding harsh.
Again, my apologies.

michel

You haven’t come off as being abrupt. So far no one has.

Anyway, I agree the Jews had an authority but as I pointed out to Manny, there is a big difference in having an authority and having an infallible authority.

I can’t really tell from your post if you believe the Jews had an infallible authority or not. What is you opinion, was the OT Jewish authority infallible or fallible? I believe they were fallible.

 

[SemperReformada]

That infallibility is relevant if we are discussing the council in 382 that defined the table contents of the bible.

michel

The coucnils of Hippo and Carthage were provinicial councils and not ecumenical and therefore incapable of issuing an infallible statement.

While having an infallible magesterium to turn to would be terrific, is it necessary?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Having an “authority” is not the same as having an INFALLIBLE authority. Do you believe the Jewish authority was infallible?

The Jewish Leaders gives us the Ten Commandments and those laws are infallible because they came from God. By that reason, they were infallible. They lost infallible when they lost favor with God by rejecting the Messiah. Infallibility was handed down from Jesus to Peter and his Apostles.

This is stated in Matthew 18:18 and Matthew 16:18.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The coucnils of Hippo and Carthage were provinicial councils and not ecumenical and therefore incapable of issuing an infallible statement.

While having an infallible magesterium to turn to would be terrific, is it necessary?

You are correct. They were local Synods. However, those same list are similiar to the later Councils such as the Council of Florence 1430 AD and the Council of Trent 1546 AD. The Church only affirm what part of Scripture is consider Canon.

The Protestant Reformers ignore the earlier Canon List by rejecting the Deutrocanonical Books because they did not fit their doctrine. It’s not just that but the Eastern Orthodox even have a larger canon than the Catholic Canon, and if you look as the Eastern Orthodox Canon, it resembles the African Canons.

 

[cazayoux]

I can’t really tell from your post if you believe the Jews had an infallible authority or not. What is you opinion, was the OT Jewish authority infallible or fallible? I believe they were fallible.

Even Jesus said of the Jewish teachers, do what they tell you but not what they do.

Matt 23:3
[3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

So what they taught was binding on the individual.
Do we see the individual telling the Pharasee, “I hear you, but that’s your opinion. I’ll consider your opinion and read for myself what God is teaching in the scripture”.
It would be ludicrous for the individual to do this.
Jesus doesn’t tell the individual to do this either. He says only to ‘observe what they tell you’.
God, Himself, is saying to submit to their teachings (even if they are sinful men).

It occurs to me that you and I might have a different definition of ‘infallible’.
When Catholics say the pope is given the charism of infallibility, what do you think we mean by that?

michel

 

[SemperReformada]

You are correct. They were local Synods. However, those same list are similiar to the later Councils such as the Council of Florence 1430 AD and the Council of Trent 1546 AD. The Church only affirm what part of Scripture is consider Canon.

The Protestant Reformers ignore the earlier Canon List by rejecting the Deutrocanonical Books because they did not fit their doctrine. It’s not just that but the Eastern Orthodox even have a larger canon than the Catholic Canon, and if you look as the Eastern Orthodox Canon, it resembles the African Canons.

I don’t think I disagree with anything you have posted here other than I’m not certain that the Reformers rejected the detuero’s soley because of doctrinal reasons.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

While having an infallible magesterium to turn to would be terrific, is it necessary?

Absolutely! How else can the faithful know what God’s teaching is and be sure that it is free from error? Tell me, how do you know your pastor’s teaching is free from error? The only Church guaranteed to be free from error is the Catholic Church. Jesus said that the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church. Thus, the Church cannot teach error. That doesn’t mean the individual members of the Church are perfect, but as a whole, the Catholic Church is infallible when defining matters of faith and morals.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

I don’t think I disagree with anything you have posted here other than I’m not certain that the Reformers rejected the detuero’s soley because of doctrinal reasons.

You’re right. The Reformers took out the Deuterocanonical books because they supported Catholic doctrine that they were trying to break off from. Martin Luther actually wanted to take out the book of James, calling it “an epistle of straw” due the the Faith and Works discourse in James 2:14-26.

They also that we should doubt their inspiration because no one knows who the human author is for some of them.

 

[SemperReformada]

Absolutely! How else can the faithful know what God’s teaching is and be sure that it is free from error?

In the absolute terms you are speaking of one can’t be sure. However, many Catholics seem to believe one must have 100% infallible certainty or no certainty at all with no room for middle ground. I doubt they apply this standard to any other area of their life.

Tell me, how do you know your pastor’s teaching is free from error?

Tell me, how do you know your understanding or your priests understanding of Catholic teaching is free from error?

The only Church guaranteed to be free from error is the Catholic Church. Jesus said that the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church. Thus, the Church cannot teach error.

How does the gates of hades not prevailing against the church suddenly equal the church not being capable of teaching error? Not only that, when you say the church is incapable of teaching error, that’s true only under certain specific circumstances isn’t it?

 

[teak421]

You didn’t come across as being harsh and you need to go back and read the first part of this thread. A Catholic poster stated that 2Thess2:15 is a proof text against sola scriptura, ie. a Catholic made an assertion.

I’ll restate… Do you hold the position that Sola Scriptura is true? If you do, what scripture text proves it. Simple question and I hope to get a simple Biblical based answer. Since the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura claims Scripture only, I’m sure the finding supporting Biblical text will be an easy exercise. Additionally, I’m also sure that the Doctrine of Sola Scripture will have plenty of historical evidence dating back when the canon was first developed. Please provide both if you don’t mind… Truly open here.

I await patiently for your response…

• Michael

–
Check out my blog at: http:\www.edailymissal.org

 

[cazayoux]

I don’t think I disagree with anything you have posted here other than I’m not certain that the Reformers rejected the detuero’s soley because of doctrinal reasons.

I do think it’s interesting that our early creeds (Apostle’s, Nicean) do not even mention scripture. They mention the church.

These do not sound as if sola scriptura was on the brain.
It seems it is the church that is the authority that Jesus left on earth.

Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I do think it’s interesting that our early creeds (Apostle’s, Nicean)** do not even mention scripture**. They mention the church.

These do not sound as if sola scriptura was on the brain.
It seems it is the church that is the authority that Jesus left on earth.

Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

 

[teak421]

I do think it’s interesting that our early creeds (Apostle’s, Nicean) do not even mention scripture. They mention the church.

These do not sound as if sola scriptura was on the brain.
It seems it is the church that is the authority that Jesus left on earth.

Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

I do not remember if that was one of the 21, if not… there’s the 22nd. If Sola Scriptura was so important, it would have been in the documents listed above. Wonderful catch!

• Michael

–
Check out my blog at: http:\www.edailymissal.org

 

[cazayoux]

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;

ahhh … i stated that the creeds to not mention scripture … and I’m clearly wrong
how embarrassing

does my faux pas mean that I have proven sola scriptura?

michel