Twilight and Vampires

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Haha–I call my kids “wiggle-wobble,” as in “Wiggle wobbles but he won’t fall down!”

Perhaps what’s missing here is what a vampire stands for. Not all fiction is allegorical, but the vampire in most cases definitely is. In the oldest European traditions, the vampire is symbolic of pure evil, of course, like the consequences of an evil life that live after the sinner is dead. It is a mundane version of Satan, prowling around and devouring, consuming the living. It’s a warning of the peacelessness that comes with dying in a state of mortal sin, a reminder that outside of Christ’s mercy, the soul’s eternal life is doomed to eternal death. Remember the adage, “There but for the grace of God go I”? So too thought the European villagers who feared vampires rising among their dead.

With most symbols, there is more than one meaning. Vampires can be construed as a picture of each of us, regular people, who are consumed and damned by sin. We are all obsessed and inclined toward sin, like the vampire desires the blood of its victim. These wiggle-woggle vampires embody the struggle that each of us faces when we try to defeat our compunction to sin. Meyer’s vampires especially seem to embody that. They are beautiful when exposed to sunlight, like we are beautifully made in God’s light, but made imperfect by our sins. They battle their sinfulness as we should, every day, and long for a time when they will be free of that stain. That also is why we see so many over-sexed vampires, or ones who not only crave blood but thrive on lust and passion and all that fun stuff. Over-emotional, maybe. Ridiculously romantic, yes.

But then wasn’t Bram Stoker’s Dracula? Hello, it was written at the height of Gothic romance. Stoker’s book was written in Victorian England, repressive of any overt passion or sexuality, and Dracula was a symbol of passion overcoming restrictive convention and propriety. Its sensuality was downright scandalous. Lucy and Mina swooned left and right. Jonathan was … attacked … by Dracula’s women and was made their sordid captive. As for vampires being loveless, Dracula loved Mina Harker! He seduced Lucy, but he loved Mina.

As far as eschewing convention and recreating vampires to be different than what they have traditionally been known to be, Eastern Europeans were outraged by Stoker’s mistreatment of their folktales, not to mention how their hero Vlad Tepes, “Dracul,” has been demonized by his story.

If you can’t change the story, or the details, or the characters, then there’s no use in writing the story to begin with. Dracula’s already been written, if somebody wants to read it they can pick it up in the library for free, they don’t have to reinvent the wheel. If somebody wants a new vampire story, the author has every right to challenge convention, upset the tables, topple some tradition and make things a little interesting again. The sympathetic vampire is still a vampire essentially (remembering that Dracula spared Mina’s life because he loved her and wanted her with him for eternity). The problem is that the evolution has stopped and all we have is sympathetic vampires, shmaltzing left and right and gooshing with teen angst and melodrama. That happens. The creative populace just has to give the genre a little boot to get things moving again, and the vampire will evolve again, picking up new themes and symbols as the cultural climate changes.

Changing vampires keeps them interesting, keeps them relevant to a constantly changing world. They have been in constant change since their beginning, that’s why we still care about them today.

Oh yeah, and it’s FICTION! The author can do whatever the heck he wants!!
 
We might want to remember that a character can be whatever the author says he is. An author faces no limits when he creates a fictional character. None. Zero. Zip. Nor does he have any obligation to follow other authors, folklore, tradition, or custom. If some readers don’t like his characters, that’s fine.

How about this one? A vampire who is evil, yet can transcend vampirism and once again revert to the mortal human condition if he finds true love. That’s pretty hokey, but it could easily form the basis of a good story about a vampire torn between good and evil. If played up right, it could represent homosexuals reverting to hetero.
 
Not me. I got tired of that kiddie stuff when I entered high-school. Honestly when I watched Enchanted one time, I’ve kept wondering… just what was it that I liked in this stuff? Ugh… :rolleyes:
So the established folklore was fine for numerous generations over the course of hundreds of years until now?
 
It’s for the same reason some inventors prefer to upgrade an existing car model instead of blowing up all their time, energy, and money making a new one.
So what you are saying is that present day authors do not have the restraint to stick with the established folklore and are not creative enough to create an entirely new concept either?
The problem is the point is not valid because, like I said, you can’t apply them.
What?
 
“So what you are saying is that present day authors do not have the restraint to stick with the established folklore and are not creative enough to create an entirely new concept either?”

Let’s accept as true that they lack both restraint and imagination. So what? They then take an established concept and change it. If readers like it, they read the work…If they don’t they ignore it.

And how about those readers? Are there readers who lack the restraint to stick to authors who stay within the guidelines of established folklore? I suppose there must be since authors like Charlene Harris have a very large following.

And there also must be a lot of readers who choose to read about variations on established folklore rather than entirely new concepts. Stephenie Meyer has millions of them as fans.
 
So what you are saying is that present day authors do not have the restraint to stick with the established folklore and are not creative enough to create an entirely new concept either?
Note that I said ‘blowing up’. Frankly, I find it just pointless, stupid, and a waste of time to come up with a new name for a creature that’s just been tweaked in certain areas all just to appease the uptight, literary traditionalists. It’s no different than trying to come up with new names to satisfy the whiny, oversensitive libs’ demand for political correctness.

However, it’s the changes in these areas where the creativity can be just as much as when one makes an entirely new concept. And given that you seem to be fond of extreme examples, I’ve got one for you. It’s the old saying:

“You may have invented but I perfected it.”
Look the problem with your example is that your so-called ‘deviations’ leave no resemblance to the original concept entirely. However, many actual reinterpretations/changes to traditional depictions of creatures still do. Dragons are still depicted to be enormously large reptiles. Zombies are still depicted to be reanimated corpses (regardless of whether or not their origin is that of science or necromancy). And in the case of Twilight’s vampires, they still drink blood, have pale skin, and possess unnatural strength.
 
Note that I said ‘blowing up’. Frankly, I find it just pointless, stupid, and a waste of time to come up with a new name for a creature that’s just been tweaked in certain areas all just to appease the uptight, literary traditionalists. It’s no different than trying to come up with new names to satisfy the whiny, oversensitive libs’ demand for political correctness.

However, it’s the changes in these areas where the creativity can be just as much as when one makes an entirely new concept. And given that you seem to be fond of extreme examples, I’ve got one for you. It’s the old saying:

“You may have invented but I perfected it.”

Look the problem with your example is that your so-called ‘deviations’ leave no resemblance to the original concept entirely. However, many actual reinterpretations/changes to traditional depictions of creatures still do. Dragons are still depicted to be enormously large reptiles. Zombies are still depicted to be reanimated corpses (regardless of whether or not their origin is that of science or necromancy). And in the case of Twilight’s vampires, they still drink blood, have pale skin, and possess unnatural strength.
The most successful fictional world/universe created in modern times is the world of “Star Trek”. The reason is continuity – the consistency of the characteristics of persons, plot, objects, places and events seen by the reader/viewer/observer.

In the world of comic books, Marvel Comics was the first to do this. Spider-man was swinging through New York City and ran into Captain America …

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/ez/Spiderman/spiderswing.gif http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/ez/spiderswing.gif http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/ez/Captain Animation.gif

… The readers did not have to be “introduced” to this other character because they already “knew” all about him if they followed his adventures in his own book. Villians were also “reused”. If Elektro fought with Captain America …

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/ez/Electro05.gif

… the reader knew what he was capable of based on his previous run-ins with Spider-Man. If slightly different powers were required, Elektro was NOT changed around but left the same and a new character was introduced for Captain America to go up against as in the case of the Electric Eel …

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/ez/Eel-CAF163.gif

… This was done to preserve the consistency of the characteristics of persons, plot, objects, places and events seen by the reader/viewer/observer. Recoginizing Marvel’s success, DC began to employ a similar approach and would have Superman running into Batman while out on patrol and teaming up …

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/ez/Blanchett_supermanredofx.gif http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/ez/ABEL_Batman90s.gif

… In the 1950’s and early 1960’s there were dozens of Comic Book Companies out there. By the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, Marvel Comics had half of the market. DC Comics had about one third of the market and the remaining one-sixth of the market went to the remaing dozen or so companies (Harvey, Atlas, etc.) who failed to incorporate continuity into their story line.

THAT is how important continuity is to fictional work. Vampires have certain characteristics associated with them established over centuries of folklore. The same for zombies. The same for ghouls. Etc.

In the short-term, it MIGHT seem interesting to change some characteristics that have long been established through folklore but in the long run, it does not help the continuity and instead hurts that continuity – which is never a good thing.
 
THAT is how important continuity is to fictional work. Vampires have certain characteristics associated with them established over centuries of folklore. The same for zombies. The same for ghouls. Etc.

In the short-term, it MIGHT seem interesting to change some characteristics that have long been established through folklore but in the long run, it does not help the continuity and instead hurts that continuity – which is never a good thing.
You’re comparing apples to oranges. The concept of zombies, vampires, and ghouls aren’t that of entire fictional universes such as those of Marvel, DC, or Star Trek where deviations from continuity are harmful. And let’s not forget, there are alternate versions of the first two if you’ve ever watched the likes of Justice League Unlimited, X-Men Evolution, Teen Titans, the three Spider-Man movies. (You do remember that the original Spider-Man had to use synthetic webbing right?)

Here’s another of my own example: the Transformers. I mean how many times have we already seen the different versions of Primes and Megatrons?

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When Michael Bay presented the new redesigns for the movie version, the G1 traditionalists were outraged. However, all these people were eventually told to just shut up, not just by those who saw how great the movie was, but also by the more open-minded fans of the franchise.

And since we’re talking about continuity, take note that there are some shows that have little to no continuity at all. Take Japan’s Kamen Rider and Super Sentai series. They’ve been around since the 1970s with each new season being a different, independent story. Still, regardless, they’ve managed to make so many different types but still managing to retain certain elements in their shows that made them the same and different all at once.
 
Then why not create an entirely new creature and none of it will be “old”?
Its because they lack the talent and imagination.
The problem is not everyone is the typical horror fan who loves seeing people mutilated, mangled, and shrivel up like prunes as feral vampires ravage them like mindless beasts. People who don’t get tired of stuff like that are really just people who limit their tastes to one genre. I’d prefer a bit more variety in my life, thanks…
I know. I belong to a few horror forums. And their taste are wide and varied. But They still prefer a “evil” vampire. Don’t confuse Horror fans with pre teens.
Movies like twilight. Twilight made me confused. Just blunt their teeth and you’re watching a modern jane austen novel/movie. Honestly when i was watching the movie i kept expecting Mr Darcy to prance in at any minute and save the day.
Besides, who are you to tell writers what genre a certain creature is only supposed to show up in? The Muppet Count von Count is not a traditional horror vampire either (the same with the kiddie show he stars in) but he’s still a vampire.
Who am I? I’m a person who lives in a free country who has the right to say what i like and don’t like. If you take this attitude of “just shut up and like what i say to like” the only published work you’ll ever produce is in internet forums.
Actually i’ve never heard count ever say he was a vampire. I could be wrong. But i’ve never heard him say it. You acused someone of comparing apples to oranges. well you’re comparing apples to rabbits by comparison. You point about transformers and optimus prime is an invalid point. Yes they/he looks different. maybe even how he/they came to be is a little different from the original seris. But they are still the same as far as what they are and how they go about their business. Besides look at the pics you posted. they are different. But still very much the same.
"Little Katie:
It figures your son and you would find it borring. Your “wigglewoggles” are directed at a female audiance who are attracted to the strong and slightly dark types xD.
Strong? LOL … No i’m sorry for lol’ing.But someone who goes around moaning and whinning like some pathetic love sick puppy. doesn’t actually project a sence of strength. Dark? maybe… If you mean dark as in some depressed loser.
Take Japan’s Kamen Rider and Super Sentai series. They’ve been around since the 1970s with each new season being a different, independent story. Still, regardless, they’ve managed to make so many different types but still managing to retain certain elements in their shows that made them the same and different all at once.
And which one has massive world wide appeal. And are known the world over. And which ones aren’t? And i’m not talking about small "communities around the globe either.
 
I know. I belong to a few horror forums. And their taste are wide and varied. But They still prefer a “evil” vampire. Don’t confuse Horror fans with pre teens.
Movies like twilight. Twilight made me confused. Just blunt their teeth and you’re watching a modern jane austen novel/movie. Honestly when i was watching the movie i kept expecting Mr Darcy to prance in at any minute and save the day.
The point is just because vampires are horror monsters, it doesn’t mean horror junkies like you get to say what type of story they go in and what kind of beings they are.
Who am I? I’m a person who lives in a free country who has the right to say what i like and don’t like. If you take this attitude of “just shut up and like what i say to like” the only published work you’ll ever produce is in internet forums.
Actually i’ve never heard count ever say he was a vampire. I could be wrong. But i’ve never heard him say it. You acused someone of comparing apples to oranges. well you’re comparing apples to rabbits by comparison. You point about transformers and optimus prime is an invalid point. Yes they/he looks different. maybe even how he/they came to be is a little different from the original seris. But they are still the same as far as what they are and how they go about their business. Besides look at the pics you posted. they are different. But still very much the same.
headbangs on desk Thanks for trying to completely blind yourself to the obvious. Just because they look different they’re still the same? Tell that to the whiny G1-obsessed idiots who wanted to boycott Bay.

Besides, what do you think I’ve been trying to say all this time? If Optimus and Megatron can be capable of undergoing redesigns then I don’t see why vampires can’t. Secondly, people aren’t stupid. Everyone can tell that the count is a vampire Muppet. Period. Google him and every source you’ll find says he is a vampire. Finally, where the heck did I say you have to like what I like? You know it’s even ironic given that your criticism is pretty much similar. “Either you do it this way or not at all.” Gimme a break. I’m not saying that you should like something that’s not to your taste but mainly not impose your tastes on people’s writing styles.
And which one has massive world wide appeal. And are known the world over. And which ones aren’t? And i’m not talking about small "communities around the globe either.
If we’re talking about fanbase, Trekkies have as much geeky connotations as the hobbyists who collect toy and robot merchandise. Heck, I’ve never been into Star Trek myself and neither do a lot of people I know of around my age. :rolleyes:
 
“The point is just because vampires are horror monsters, it doesn’t mean horror junkies like you get to say what type of story they go in and what kind of beings they are.”

Correct. Only one person gets to say that: the author. Now that’s real power.
 
You’re comparing apples to oranges. The concept of zombies, vampires, and ghouls aren’t that of entire fictional universes such as those of Marvel, DC, or Star Trek where deviations from continuity are harmful.
Just because it does not deal with a specific character or come from a “centralized” story depository does not mean that it does not have an impact on the established folklore.
And let’s not forget, there are alternate versions of the first two if you’ve ever watched the likes of Justice League Unlimited, X-Men Evolution, Teen Titans, the three Spider-Man movies. (You do remember that the original Spider-Man had to use synthetic webbing right?)
Interesting that you bring that up. I don’t know how old you are but about a dozen years ago (maybe more, maybe less), they messed up the Spider-Man continuity so badly that they were actually in danger of losing the Spider-Man franchise. Marvel’s most popular character, who at one time had SIX independent books featuring him as the main character, was in danger of being cancelled but sales fell through ther floor because people were so bothered by the lack of continuity in the story line.

Make no mistake, continuity is important. It is so important that Marvel Comics now requires it’s writers to submit a writing plan any time one of their stories is going to have an impact on the continuity which includes an outline on how to bring the character back to his roots. This writing plan has to be approved before a writer is allowed to break from the established continuity so that there is always a way to bring things back to the way that they were.
Here’s another of my own example: the Transformers. I mean how many times have we already seen the different versions of Primes and Megatrons?

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Astrotrain-2007/csoptimusprime.jpg
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q313/PrimeVader/Transformers/Pics/Optimusprimal.jpg
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss44/chriddle2009/bumblebee.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d180/alex_kingdom/Transformers/megatron.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/DarkPrince128/Transformers/Beast wars/megatron-3.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/cisco2594/_megatron.png

When Michael Bay presented the new redesigns for the movie version, the G1 traditionalists were outraged. However, all these people were eventually told to just shut up, not just by those who saw how great the movie was, but also by the more open-minded fans of the franchise.

And since we’re talking about continuity, take note that there are some shows that have little to no continuity at all. Take Japan’s Kamen Rider and Super Sentai series. They’ve been around since the 1970s with each new season being a different, independent story. Still, regardless, they’ve managed to make so many different types but still managing to retain certain elements in their shows that made them the same and different all at once.
As I said earlier, looking at individual cases in and of themselves, the harm in continuity may not be readily apparent but when looked at the bigger picture over the long term, a departure in continuity in never a good thing and should therefore be avoid.
 
Just because it does not deal with a specific character or come from a “centralized” story depository does not mean that it does not have an impact on the established folklore.
Yes it does. 😛 A fictional universe cannot be equated to a fictional species since there have been many varied depictions of them in every story imaginable (these include elves, dragons, and yes, vampires).
Interesting that you bring that up. I don’t know how old you are but about a dozen years ago (maybe more, maybe less), they messed up the Spider-Man continuity so badly that they were actually in danger of losing the Spider-Man franchise. Marvel’s most popular character, who at one time had SIX independent books featuring him as the main character, was in danger of being cancelled but sales fell through ther floor because people were so bothered by the lack of continuity in the story line.

Make no mistake, continuity is important. It is so important that Marvel Comics now requires it’s writers to submit a writing plan any time one of their stories is going to have an impact on the continuity which includes an outline on how to bring the character back to his roots. This writing plan has to be approved before a writer is allowed to break from the established continuity so that there is always a way to bring things back to the way that they were.
That doesn’t change what we’re looking at today. There have been many alternate versions of super heroes, not just Spider-man mind you, in the form of numerous TV shows, movies, special “what-if” comic books, and even changes in superpowers by the way writers give their heroes conveniently plotted “upgrades” from time to time.
As I said earlier, looking at individual cases in and of themselves, the harm in continuity may not be readily apparent but when looked at the bigger picture over the long term, a departure in continuity in never a good thing and should therefore be avoid.
Tell that to Michael Bay and the other people who have made various depictions of the Transformers.
 
latin_rite;5399475:
Sir Knight;5395074:
Then why not create an entirely new creature and none of it will be “old”?
Its because they lack the talent and imagination.

+1. 👍

Either has the discipline to follow established protocol or display the talent to create your own creatures and then you can do whatever you want with them.
:rolleyes:

Recreating something and giving it a fresh perspective takes as much creativity and talent as creating something else entirely. This may not be the best example but ever watched Pimp My Ride? Then again, you guys pretty much worship these ancient, man-made, literary traditions that none of you have the courage to change them. :rolleyes:

And besides, following your logic I guess people who can’t find more politically correct names aren’t creative either eh? I mean, given they don’t have the ‘talent’ to think up of more acceptable names for minorities. :rolleyes:

I quote Bertold Brecht
With the people struggling and changing reality before our eves, we must not
cling to “tried” rules of narrative, venerable literary models, eternal aesthetic laws.
So the established folklore was fine for numerous generations over the course of hundreds of years until now?
Tell me, where I can I find at least five people between the age of 15-25 who still like reading fluffy fairy tales of boastful knights and shiny unicorns? :rolleyes:
 
Yes it does. 😛 A fictional universe cannot be equated to a fictional species since there have been many varied depictions of them in every story imaginable (these include elves, dragons, and yes, vampires).
But vampires, elves, zombies, ghouls, etc.; have always had certain characteristics associated with them – the importance of continuity!
That doesn’t change what we’re looking at today. There have been many alternate versions of super heroes, not just Spider-man mind you, in the form of numerous TV shows, movies, special “what-if” comic books, and even changes in superpowers by the way writers give their heroes conveniently plotted “upgrades” from time to time.
Did you read what I said about writers required to have a writing plan in place which brings the character back to square one after the story arc is completed?
Tell that to Michael Bay and the other people who have made various depictions of the Transformers.
Talk to Michael Bay and the other people who have made various depictions of the Transformers when they kill that franchise due to inconsistent continuity. Change always sparks added interest initially but if continuity is not maintained or restored that interest quickly drops even lower.
 
:rolleyes:

Recreating something and giving it a fresh perspective takes as much creativity and talent as creating something else entirely. This may not be the best example but ever watched Pimp My Ride? Then again, you guys pretty much worship these ancient, man-made, literary traditions that none of you have the courage to change them. :rolleyes:
Anybody can jump into something that has already been established and use that as a starting point but it takes discipline to remain within the established guidelines and creative talent to develop a new fictional world/universe. It seems that most of today’s writer lack both the that discipline and creative talent.
Tell me, where I can I find at least five people between the age of 15-25 who still like reading fluffy fairy tales of boastful knights and shiny unicorns? :rolleyes:
Tell me why previous generations didn’t have this issue? What makes the current generation different from past generations? Special or spoiled?
 
But vampires, elves, zombies, ghouls, etc.; have always had certain characteristics associated with them – the importance of continuity!
The problem is not all these characteristics are as binding as you would desire them to be, hence the difference.
Did you read what I said about writers required to have a writing plan in place which brings the character back to square one after the story arc is completed?
I did but you didn’t even explain how that is supposed to address the various depictions in other media or are you even aware that comic book characters are on TV nowadays?
Talk to Michael Bay and the other people who have made various depictions of the Transformers when they kill that franchise due to inconsistent continuity. Change always sparks added interest initially but if continuity is not maintained or restored that interest quickly drops even lower.
Michael Bay has as much chance as killing a franchise (a franchise that’s been running since the 1980s) as Christopher J. Brough et al did when they came up with Beast Wars: Zero.
 
Anybody can jump into something that has already been established and use that as a starting point but it takes discipline to remain within the established guidelines and creative talent to develop a new fictional world/universe. It seems that most of today’s writer lack both the that discipline and creative talent.
Anybody? Not with people like you going around condemning deviations from tradition. Which is why, just like Brecht, I believe no model of good form should ever be in force indefinitely… because it never could. Constantly trying to freshen something that has to be within the the same old guidelines sounds like nothing more than milking a specified concept till it’s dry. Now that I think about, I believe the ones who lack creativity are actually the ones conforming to these guidelines. They’re just going by the book, taking their ideas from it and not attempting to add anything new.

And before you go off with your challenge again about how one should then just make something new entirely, let me tell you that it’s a joke. No art is ‘truly original’ for there will always be strong influences and inspirations from other things. Say for example that if I were to create a character who…

Shoots energy bats.
Has fangs.
Dresses in black.
Sprouts bat-like wings.
Has red eyes.
Has pale skin.
Has frightening strength
Drinks human blood.

It’s all too obvious already of what type of creature that being is and where I got the ideas from. However, just because I decide to make such a character into one of the good guys I have start coming up with a morphological Frankenstein of a word as a replacement for the more convenient word ‘vampire’? No way. Forget it.
Tell me why previous generations didn’t have this issue? What makes the current generation different from past generations? Special or spoiled?
Neither. The words ‘grown-up’ comes to mind. :rolleyes::cool: I’d rather watch Samurai X than Care Bears any day.
 
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