Two Altars on one dias

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InspiritCarol

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Help please.
We have extreme conflict between our retired priest who has donated a beautiful new altar; and our new Pastor who has removed the relics from the old altar to the new one but has kept the old altar on the dias; just moved it to the back as “decoration”.

The old priest is adamant that the old altar must go away. It is “wrong” to keep it on the dias.

The new priest is equally set in his ways.

Somehow I have become the mediator.

Does anyone know of any regulations or expectations regarding this practice?

Yes, we can call the Bishop, but I thought it would be nice to see what you all could come up with first.

Thanks-
Carol
 
Are you talking about having a high altar with a smaller one in front of it? Can you please like draw on paint and attach?
 
The new altar that will be used for Mass; sits toward the front of the dias.
The old altar has been moved to the very back of the dias as a decorative piece.
The old altar had its relics transferred to the new altar.

They are completely seperate entities.
 
Interesting.

In the case where a church was built before the mid 1960s or so (when ad orientum was the norm in practice) it was usual that the altar was pushed back against the wall --and in fact might be physically attached to the back wall. When versus populum became the de facto norm it was often the case that a brand new free standing altar was set up in front of the old “high altar”.

Churches built after the mid 1960s probably have always had a free-standing altar. And that altar is possibly much less ornate than some of the older “attached” altars.

If I understand the OP correctly it seems that the old altar was free-standing but has now been pushed back against the wall.
 
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal states the following:
303. In building new churches, it is preferable for a single altar to be erected, one that in the gathering of the faithful will signify the one Christ and the one Eucharist of the Church.

In already existing churches, however, when the old altar is so positioned that it makes the people’s participation difficult but cannot be moved without damage to artistic value, another fixed altar, skillfully made and properly dedicated, should be erected and the sacred rites celebrated on it alone. In order that the attention of the faithful not be distracted from the new altar, the old altar should not be decorated in any special way.
Without knowing the layout of your church, the artistic merit or lack thereof of the old altar, or whether it could be removed without damaging it, it is difficult to say what the outcome ought to be.
 
That is correct, and the retired priest is completely, viscerally appalled by this.
He’s coming over Thursday where I expect he’ll explain himself better.

He’s acting like it’s so completely wrong that it should just be obvious to everyone involved.

It is not.

Is there anyone who knows where he’s coming from so I can find some common ground and we don’t have to get the Bishop involved?
 
MarkThompson said:
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal states the following:
303. In building new churches, it is preferable for a single altar to be erected, one that in the gathering of the faithful will signify the one Christ and the one Eucharist of the Church.

In already existing churches, however, when the old altar is so positioned that it makes the people’s participation difficult but cannot be moved without damage to artistic value, another fixed altar, skillfully made and properly dedicated, should be erected and the sacred rites celebrated on it alone. In order that the attention of the faithful not be distracted from the new altar, the old altar should not be decorated in any special way.
Without knowing the layout of your church, the artistic merit or lack thereof of the old altar, or whether it could be removed without damaging it, it is difficult to say what the outcome ought to be.
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Eureka!
Thanks a TON.

This is what I was looking for.

I think I can avoid any more confrontations if I just refresh our new priest’s memory with this (#303); ask him if he can see where the retired priest is seeing the new set-up as being illicit - So, see, not directly accusing our pastor of any wrong-doing. I think the new Pastor is a kind enough man that even if he feels he can argue the merits of the old altar for artistic reasons, the artistry of it can be better displayed in the hall or such; if for no other reason than it is distracting to this one priest.

If the Pastor’s not as kind as I think he is; I am inclined to side with the retired priest. Even though the old altar is no longer an altar, it remains such in the minds of the congregants making it most definitely contrary to its purpose.

Thanks!
 
InspiritCarol said:
Help please.
We have extreme conflict between our retired priest who has donated a beautiful new altar; and our new Pastor who has removed the relics from the old altar to the new one but has kept the old altar on the dias; just moved it to the back as “decoration”.

The old priest is adamant that the old altar must go away. It is “wrong” to keep it on the dias.

The new priest is equally set in his ways.

Somehow I have become the mediator.

Does anyone know of any regulations or expectations regarding this practice?

Yes, we can call the Bishop, but I thought it would be nice to see what you all could come up with first.

Thanks-
Carol
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I am not clear what you mean by the dias and without a photo I suspect it will be difficult to make comments that can be a resolution for you.

It is not unusual since Vatican II to find two altars in one sanctuary. In many places it was believed that when the Mass was revised following Vatican II it became compulsory to have the priest on one side of the altar facing the congregation. In many churches the “old” high altar was left against the back wall of the church, or at least at the back of the sanctuary, and a newer altar was put further forward in the sanctuary.

I don’t know if this is what the set-up in your sanctuary now looks like.
 
I know many parisshes have a seperate chapel somewhere, and perhaps a private chapel in the rectory as well. Additionally, there are some times when a parish would need a second altar, such as for the Altar of Repose during the Easter Triduum, or when overflow or extra masses are celebrated in the school gym or such a place.

Whatever the outcome of this debate, it is likely that the older altar could continue to be used in a special way.

And if the parish does not have one already, perhaps it could be used to set up a side altar dedicated to Mary or its patron saint, or perhaps an adoration chapel.
 
PrayForMeStJude said:
I know many parisshes have a seperate chapel somewhere, and perhaps a private chapel in the rectory as well. Additionally, there are some times when a parish would need a second altar, such as for the Altar of Repose during the Easter Triduum, or when overflow or extra masses are celebrated in the school gym or such a place.

Whatever the outcome of this debate, it is likely that the older altar could continue to be used in a special way.

And if the parish does not have one already, perhaps it could be used to set up a side altar dedicated to Mary or its patron saint, or perhaps an adoration chapel.
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Praise Jesus if we could ever see side altars being commonly built in churches ever again. It’s always exciting when you see one in a church.
 
Outstanding suggestions.

Even better to offer positive placement suggestions.

Is there anything in the GIRM about side altars?

The pastor has a special love for Mary.
I’d like to suggest something licit along those lines.

The altar of repose is also a brilliant idea. I don’t know why that didn’t occur to any of us.
 
If the altar is made of marble it could be very heavy to move and relocate somewhere else not to mention the expense.
 
InspiritCarol said:
Outstanding suggestions.

Even better to offer positive placement suggestions.

Is there anything in the GIRM about side altars?

The pastor has a special love for Mary.
I’d like to suggest something licit along those lines.

The altar of repose is also a brilliant idea. I don’t know why that didn’t occur to any of us.
Click to expand...
I don’t think there is anything about side altars. The only thing about them is that only one can be used at one time for mass. So two masses can’t go on at the same time. I do believe that this rule does not apply in the EF, however.

So it’s perfectly plausible to propose a side altar Mary-themed. However, it might look a little funky if there’s a main center altar and then one side altar only on one side. So two usually is better because it balances out. For example, at one church I’ve been to several times, there are four side altars, two on the left and two on the right.
 
zab said:
If the altar is made of marble it could be very heavy to move and relocate somewhere else not to mention the expense.
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No. It’s not marble. It’s not even heavy.
It’s actually very plain and unexciting except for a simple wood carving in the middle.
From a folk art perspective it is exquisite in its simplicity.
Most would probably call it boring as dirt.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I don’t think there is anything about side altars. The only thing about them is that only one can be used at one time for mass. So two masses can’t go on at the same time. I do believe that this rule does not apply in the EF, however.

So it’s perfectly plausible to propose a side altar Mary-themed. However, it might look a little funky if there’s a main center altar and then one side altar only on one side. So two usually is better because it balances out. For example, at one church I’ve been to several times, there are four side altars, two on the left and two on the right.
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Good point.

Also, we’re under constant scrutiny/accusation from the vast majority “evangelical” crowd around us.
We have to be extra careful not to give fodder to the on-going misunderstanding that Catholics “worship” Mary as a god. ~sigh~
 
“Dias” = sanctuary?

With the work that was done, the old altar has effectively become the credence table. The retired priest needs to settle-down…
 
InspiritCarol said:
Good point.

Also, we’re under constant scrutiny/accusation from the vast majority “evangelical” crowd around us.
We have to be extra careful not to give fodder to the on-going misunderstanding that Catholics “worship” Mary as a god. ~sigh~
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On the contrary!! I think it would be an outstanding opportunity to teach and correct misunderstandings! Don’t sink to the level of the ignorant - help them rise to your level of understanding.

As far as having only one side altar - no biggie! Call it a work in progress, and in the future consider another altar on the other side for St. Joseph. 🙂

~Liza
 
lizaanne said:
As far as having only one side altar - no biggie! Call it a work in progress, and in the future consider another altar on the other side for St. Joseph. 🙂
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And in any case, who says churches have to be symmetrical? Likely as not this church is a modern church where asymmetry fits right in.
 
lizaanne said:
On the contrary!! I think it would be an outstanding opportunity to teach and correct misunderstandings! Don’t sink to the level of the ignorant - help them rise to your level of understanding.

As far as having only one side altar - no biggie! Call it a work in progress, and in the future consider another altar on the other side for St. Joseph. 🙂

~Liza
Click to expand...
Mary/Joseph altars are not a good thing unless they exist in a historical setting. Like it or not, they do detract from what should be the single, altar of sacrifice. So while I would not recommend removing such altars from historic churches (although their relics are to be removed) they shouldn’t be part of a new church design.

We are past the point (thank God) of priests celebrating their own private Masses (sometimes while the main Mass is going on.) Thank God for the gift of concelebration!
 
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