Two daughters were indocrinated {brainwashed?}

[totoatkansas]

The church my two daughters were indocrinated in they were kept awake all hrs and pressured into reading and memorizing certain scripture reading, and consistantly told what terrible sinners they were. It was as tho they were broken down then built back up in a new church. They refered to themselves as baby christians and were trying to convert me also.
There seemed to be nothing I could do. I prayed; I talked ; I preached; I talked to one Pastor in my church and he just gave me a book to read. I did find a Priest who took me serious we talked for a long while and he said I probably had to make a decision and that was to have them leave my home. because they were keeping me upset. It was very difficult for me.
I simply explained to them that my home was a Catholic home and if they could not respect the Catholic Church that they would have to leave. They then had moved into one of the church members home. They were told all the lies re: the Catholic Church, worshiping Mary, etc; etc;. These same girls went to a Catholic school thru the 8th grade. I thought they were catechized well but either I was mistaken or these other people they came in contact with are great with their propaganda. It is sad because they are teaching my grandchildren all the lies of Mcarthurism, Luther and Calvin re: the True Church they grew up with. I have hope like St. Monica and pray about this all the time. I can,t help tho but think that for some reason this has been Gods Will and when He is ready they will return to the Catholic Church…I pray

 

[Rocky]

The church my two daughters were indocrinated in they were kept awake all hrs and pressured into reading and memorizing certain scripture reading, and consistantly told what terrible sinners they were. It was as tho they were broken down then built back up in a new church. They refered to themselves as baby christians and were trying to convert me also.
There seemed to be nothing I could do. I prayed; I talked ; I preached; I talked to one Pastor in my church and he just gave me a book to read. I did find a Priest who took me serious we talked for a long while and he said I probably had to make a decision and that was to have them leave my home. because they were keeping me upset. It was very difficult for me.
I simply explained to them that my home was a Catholic home and if they could not respect the Catholic Church that they would have to leave. They then had moved into one of the church members home. They were told all the lies re: the Catholic Church, worshiping Mary, etc; etc;. These same girls went to a Catholic school thru the 8th grade. I thought they were catechized well but either I was mistaken or these other people they came in contact with are great with their propaganda. It is sad because they are teaching my grandchildren all the lies of Mcarthurism, Luther and Calvin re: the True Church they grew up with. I have hope like St. Monica and pray about this all the time. I can,t help tho but think that for some reason this has been Gods Will and when He is ready they will return to the Catholic Church…I pray

We too have children who have left the Catholic Church, and we pray for their return. I will say a prayer for you and your daughters and grandchildren. I hope you are able to still have a relationship with your grandchildren.

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

Did you seriously choose your church over your daughters welfare? I am shocked and dismayed that on the surface this appears to be what you have done. What ever happened to the respect that Catholics have for other faiths? She is still Christian so the only real difference is Dogma not belief. How can you throw them out just because they don’t agree with you?
Parents are supposed to support their children and guide them through even the worst decisions.

I was Catholic for many years so I understand that there are many misunderstandings about Catholocism but to reject your daughters for the natural response of young adults to rebel is, well, shocking.

If you choose to pray to help your daughters “straying from the path” then do as you feel, but please also be active in the moral and intellectual development of your daughters. In teaching them to reject whatever doesn’t agree with you, you are in fact partaking in a form of indoctrination of your daughters yourself. Agree with me or else. That doesn’t give them reason to believe. Give them the evidence and the critical thinking tools with which to make an informed decision and then support them as they use the skills that you gave them.

I guarantee you that you will regret it if you don’t accept that they are allowed to form their own opinions on things and accept them back into your heart and home.
The distance that this will create between you and your lovely family will eat away at you until it is replaced by something more bitter and sad.

The best weapon against evil is love.

peace

 

[Rocky]

Did you seriously choose your church over your daughters welfare? I am shocked and dismayed that on the surface this appears to be what you have done. What ever happened to the respect that Catholics have for other faiths? She is still Christian so the only real difference is Dogma not belief. How can you throw them out just because they don’t agree with you?
Parents are supposed to support their children and guide them through even the worst decisions.

I was Catholic for many years so I understand that there are many misunderstandings about Catholocism but to reject your daughters for the natural response of young adults to rebel is, well, shocking.

If you choose to pray to help your daughters “straying from the path” then do as you feel, but please also be active in the moral and intellectual development of your daughters. In teaching them to reject whatever doesn’t agree with you, you are in fact partaking in a form of indoctrination of your daughters yourself. Agree with me or else. That doesn’t give them reason to believe. Give them the evidence and the critical thinking tools with which to make an informed decision and then support them as they use the skills that you gave them.

I guarantee you that you will regret it if you don’t accept that they are allowed to form their own opinions on things and accept them back into your heart and home.
The distance that this will create between you and your lovely family will eat away at you until it is replaced by something more bitter and sad.

The best weapon against evil is love.

peace

If her daughters are to be allowed to form their own opinions, surely she has a right to her opinion that her daughters must also respect. What I got from the OP was that her daughters were not respecting *her *Catholic faith, and that if they could not give *her *this respect they needed to leave. I did not infer that she said that they had to reconvert to Catholicism or leave. I guess Totoatkansas would have to say which of us understood her post correctly…

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

If her daughters are to be allowed to form their own opinions, surely she has a right to her opinion that her daughters must also respect. What I got from the OP was that her daughters were not respecting *her *Catholic faith, and that if they could not give *her *this respect they needed to leave. I did not infer that she said that they had to reconvert to Catholicism or leave. I guess Totoatkansas would have to say which of us understood her post correctly…

True enough!

I would also add that if you are in fact correct, then they should also be allowed to question, critisize and disagree with their mother on the matter of faith as God commands you to defend your faith with all reason to all unbelievers. As long as they aren’t being disrespectful, or insulting by saying that she is “stupid” or making personal aspersions against her. Being respectful doesn’t mean not questioning, or not thinking that someones belief is wrong. It means not judging someone based on that belief or not treating them poorly as a result of that disagreement.

But in the end, as you say, only she knows.

peace

 

[ricko]

This sounds like a cult of the worse kind. These kind of people you cannot reason with. I’m sure the priest (who got a more detailed story than us) realized this. I would talk to the priest again and see if he can find someone to deprogram them. God bless

 

[blacktiger057]

But aren’t we all indoctrinated? I’m not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, although somtimes it is, but the parents we are born to and the society we live in inarguably indoctrinates us with countless unconsciousness beliefs. The parents of these two daughters indoctrinated them, as all parents do. That’s how we first start learning. When it comes to slightly different dogmas, it seems to me that its just one ideology/indoctrination fighting against another.

Please, move past religious differences. The mother and daughter should respect each others beliefs. If the mother is throwing them out because of their beliefs, then that is very hypocritical imo. Religion needs to unite people, not separate them. The separation that religion often brings is the number cause of war and stops people from otherwise getting along (such as in this situation).

 

[ricko]

But aren’t we all indoctrinated? I’m not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, although somtimes it is, but the parents we are born to and the society we live in inarguably indoctrinates us with countless unconsciousness beliefs. The parents of these two daughters indoctrinated them, as all parents do. That’s how we first start learning. When it comes to slightly different dogmas, it seems to me that its just one ideology/indoctrination fighting against another.

Please, move past religious differences. The mother and daughter should respect each others beliefs. If the mother is throwing them out because of their beliefs, then that is very hypocritical imo. Religion needs to unite people, not separate them. The separation that religion often brings is the number cause of war and stops people from otherwise getting along (such as in this situation).

No, we are not indoctrinated. We are taught, there is a big difference. She is not being hypocritical. She is addressing a serious problem and for right now that is the only solution. She already made it clear that on her childrens part there was no respect. This is a cult she is dealing with. Cults are not even Christian.

in·doc·tri·nate cause to believe something: to teach somebody a belief, doctrine, or ideology thoroughly and systematically, especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions

 

[derekohachey]

totoatkansas,

If you don’t mind me asking, what are the ages of your Daughters and what is the church that they were “indoctrinated” in? Aside from the anti-Catholic material they have approached you with, what beliefs do they hold that are distinct from Orthodoxy & Catholicism?

Although our Atheist friend here is right that action is required. Action without Sanctifying Grace may ultimately be futile. Pray, keep in a state of Grace by going to confession if required, receive the Holy Eucharist, spend time at Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Open yourself 24/7 to receiving all of God’s grace.

Use catholic.com & other resources to learn about the questions your Daughters have if you are still uncertain how to answer their concerns.

I will keep you in my prayers,
Derek

 

[LDNCatholic]

Religion needs to unite people, not separate them.

Really? And here was me thinking the purpose of religion was to provide a vehicle for worship of God.

 

[kalt]

But aren’t we all indoctrinated? I’m not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, although somtimes it is, but the parents we are born to and the society we live in inarguably indoctrinates us with countless unconsciousness beliefs. The parents of these two daughters indoctrinated them, as all parents do. That’s how we first start learning. When it comes to slightly different dogmas, it seems to me that its just one ideology/indoctrination fighting against another.

Please, move past religious differences. The mother and daughter should respect each others beliefs. If the mother is throwing them out because of their beliefs, then that is very hypocritical imo. Religion needs to unite people, not separate them. The separation that religion often brings is the number cause of war and stops people from otherwise getting along (such as in this situation).

The OP didn’t mention her daughters’ ages, but she did mention grandchildren. I think we can assume that they are adults.

If an adult is old enough to choose her own religion, and feels that she is competant enough to tell others what to believe, then she is old enough and competant enough to take responsibility for herself.

There is nothing wrong with telling adult children that it’s time to move out. There is no bad reason for telling adults that it’s time to stop being children.

These women were being disrespectful of their host (their mother). What horrible house guests they were!

Can any of you imagine being an adult living in someone elses home (even your partents’) and telling your host that their religion stinks?

 

[Eucharisted]

Pray and hope, and they will return with greater love for the Church than they did before.

 

[wmscott]

Did you seriously choose your church over your daughters welfare? I am shocked and dismayed that on the surface this appears to be what you have done. What ever happened to the respect that Catholics have for other faiths? She is still Christian so the only real difference is Dogma not belief. How can you throw them out just because they don’t agree with you?
Parents are supposed to support their children and guide them through even the worst decisions.

I was Catholic for many years so I understand that there are many misunderstandings about Catholocism but to reject your daughters for the natural response of young adults to rebel is, well, shocking.

If you choose to pray to help your daughters “straying from the path” then do as you feel, but please also be active in the moral and intellectual development of your daughters. In teaching them to reject whatever doesn’t agree with you, you are in fact partaking in a form of indoctrination of your daughters yourself. Agree with me or else. That doesn’t give them reason to believe. Give them the evidence and the critical thinking tools with which to make an informed decision and then support them as they use the skills that you gave them.

I guarantee you that you will regret it if you don’t accept that they are allowed to form their own opinions on things and accept them back into your heart and home.
The distance that this will create between you and your lovely family will eat away at you until it is replaced by something more bitter and sad.

The best weapon against evil is love.

peace

The RED flag here is “were indoctrinated in they were kept awake all hrs and pressured into reading and memorizing certain scripture reading, and consistently told what terrible sinners they were. It was as though they were broken down then built back up in a new church.” This is purely a brainwashing tactic used by cults under the semblance of a Christian religion. Did you know that Charles Manson used the same tactics on his followers? As for the daughters leaving, they had the opportunity to stay, however they chose to leave. It must have been devastating to the household. No “TRUE” Christian faith would even consider this path in converting an individual to their faith.
You state “but to reject your daughters for the natural response of young adults to rebel is, well, shocking” and that they are “straying from the path". What is shocking is the inability for you and maybe others to see what this truly is. This is not natural rebellion of a youthful spirit; it was the hijacking of minds and souls by a cult. I have news for you while they are in the grips of a cult there is no “moral and intellectual development” of her daughters.
We can pray for the return of her daughters to the Faith, Mom can if possible have an intervention, but most of all Mom needs all of the support she can get and to have you denigrate her like this is irresponsible.

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

No, we are not indoctrinated. We are taught, there is a big difference. She is not being hypocritical. She is addressing a serious problem and for right now that is the only solution. She already made it clear that on her childrens part there was no respect. This is a cult she is dealing with. Cults are not even Christian.

in·doc·tri·nate cause to believe something: to teach somebody a belief, doctrine, or ideology thoroughly and systematically, especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions

By your own definition every religion indocrtinates. Catholicism discourages acceptance of other opinions, and does not promote free thought about god, it hands you dogma to obey. Does Catholicism NOT teach you to obey gods words and laws (dogmas)?

There is very little doubt that every religion indoctrinates. God isn’t presented as a possibility in a religious family, he is presented as fact. Unquestionable, unfallible fact along with the dogma that is associated with it. That is the essence of indoctrination. She made it very clear that SHE felt that there was no respect, but many times “respect” is a term used to keep people from questioning someones beliefs. Questioning beliefs is not disrespecful, it is intellectually honest.
The real point here beyond the religious debate here, is how can a difference of opinion lead to someone rejecting their own children. If my boy grows up to be a believer, i will disagree with him, I will debate him, I will guide him, but if he continues to think that he needs or wants religion, then I will still love and support him in every way. My son telling me that I am wrong is not disrespectful, it is his way of using the intellectual critical thinking tools that I taught him to have.
PLUS I love him, so nothing can cause me to reject him. If I feel he is on the wrong path, or even worse that he is the VICTIM of a cults attentions, I need to stay closer to him to provide what guidance I can in order to save him.Sending him away would serve no loving purpose.

peace

 

[ralphinal]

Really? And here was me thinking the purpose of religion was to provide a vehicle for worship of God.

Would that not unite?

Assuming everyone could see the Truth

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

The RED flag here is “were indoctrinated in they were kept awake all hrs and pressured into reading and memorizing certain scripture reading, and consistently told what terrible sinners they were. It was as though they were broken down then built back up in a new church.” This is purely a brainwashing tactic used by cults under the semblance of a Christian religion. Did you know that Charles Manson used the same tactics on his followers? As for the daughters leaving, they had the opportunity to stay, however they chose to leave. It must have been devastating to the household. No “TRUE” Christian faith would even consider this path in converting an individual to their faith.
You state “but to reject your daughters for the natural response of young adults to rebel is, well, shocking” and that they are “straying from the path". What is shocking is the inability for you and maybe others to see what this truly is. This is not natural rebellion of a youthful spirit; it was the hijacking of minds and souls by a cult. I have news for you while they are in the grips of a cult there is no “moral and intellectual development” of her daughters.
We can pray for the return of her daughters to the Faith, Mom can if possible have an intervention, but most of all Mom needs all of the support she can get and to have you denigrate her like this is irresponsible.

I can’t in all good concience disagree with anything that you have said. I was implying that it is likely that their willingness to go explore such options was the result of a youthful rebellion. I am sure that they weren’t kidnapped and forced to come with them otherwise she should be calling the police. Where we differ is that no matter what the source of their fervour for disagreement in dogmas is, for her mother to reject her won children is atrocious. If she is afraid for their wellbeing or thinking that they are victims to a cults attentions, then she needs to take an even more active hand in their lives to ensure their safety. By ejecting them fromt he hosuehold she has released any chance of being able to guide them in the right direction, and is in fact giving this cult even more power over their daughters with her influence gone. She needs to stay beside her children no matter what. I could never send my son away, no matter what. I would always protect him as best I can. And you can never protect your children more fully than in the presence of your love and support.

peace

 

[EvolvedAtheist]

totoatkansas,

If you don’t mind me asking, what are the ages of your Daughters and what is the church that they were “indoctrinated” in? Aside from the anti-Catholic material they have approached you with, what beliefs do they hold that are distinct from Orthodoxy & Catholicism?

Although our Atheist friend here is right that action is required. Action without Sanctifying Grace may ultimately be futile. Pray, keep in a state of Grace by going to confession if required, receive the Holy Eucharist, spend time at Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Open yourself 24/7 to receiving all of God’s grace.

Use catholic.com & other resources to learn about the questions your Daughters have if you are still uncertain how to answer their concerns.

I will keep you in my prayers,
Derek

Your words are very kind and born from love in that it is clear that you have only the best interest of the parties involved at heart. The thing that is being forgotten here is that (in your faith) it IS a state of grace to love and care for your children. There is no greater grace to god in Catholicism than to have and care for children. Make all possible efforts to keep these girls safe and loved. She needs to bring her girls to her bosom in order to shelter them from the storm. No matter the disrespect, no matter the hurt, no matter the cost your children must be kept safe and guided along the best path for their well being. Put all possible efforts in this direction. This is gods direction as told in the bible. I am not here to argue dogma or belief, only to speak out in favour of a families sanctity and concern for their safety if the situation is as extreme as she says, and out of concern for a families unity if they have merely fallen from the mothers beliefs.
Either way, love them, protect them, and most of all support them by standing at their side. I think that in the end, Derek, we agree in this if not the dogmas behind it.

peace and love

 

[Rocky]

Your words are very kind and born from love in that it is clear that you have only the best interest of the parties involved at heart. The thing that is being forgotten here is that (in your faith) it IS a state of grace to love and care for your children. There is no greater grace to god in Catholicism than to have and care for children. Make all possible efforts to keep these girls safe and loved. She needs to bring her girls to her bosom in order to shelter them from the storm. No matter the disrespect, no matter the hurt, no matter the cost your children must be kept safe and guided along the best path for their well being. Put all possible efforts in this direction. This is gods direction as told in the bible. I am not here to argue dogma or belief, only to speak out in favour of a families sanctity and concern for their safety if the situation is as extreme as she says, and out of concern for a families unity if they have merely fallen from the mothers beliefs.
Either way, love them, protect them, and most of all support them by standing at their side. I think that in the end, Derek, we agree in this if not the dogmas behind it.

peace and love

What you don’t seem to understand is that parental love can die when pushed too far—especially by adult children. It is not something any parent wants to happen. It is just that parents are human too. So perhaps the priest is right if Totoatkansas is being pushed so far. It is better to continue to love from a distance by praying constantly for her children, than to be badgered into a death of love.

 

[wmscott]

I can’t in all good concience disagree with anything that you have said. I was implying that it is likely that their willingness to go explore such options was the result of a youthful rebellion. I am sure that they weren’t kidnapped and forced to come with them otherwise she should be calling the police. Where we differ is that no matter what the source of their fervour for disagreement in dogmas is, for her mother to reject her won children is atrocious. If she is afraid for their wellbeing or thinking that they are victims to a cults attentions, then she needs to take an even more active hand in their lives to ensure their safety. By ejecting them fromt he hosuehold she has released any chance of being able to guide them in the right direction, and is in fact giving this cult even more power over their daughters with her influence gone. She needs to stay beside her children no matter what. I could never send my son away, no matter what. I would always protect him as best I can. And you can never protect your children more fully than in the presence of your love and support.

peace

In reality, we do not know the extent of what was really going on inside the home. I am willing to bet it was very intense and disruptive. Brainwashing is a form of kidnapping, but legally what can anyone do when seemingly intelligent and coherent people say otherwise.

 

[ricko]

By your own definition every religion indocrtinates. Catholicism discourages acceptance of other opinions, and does not promote free thought about god, it hands you dogma to obey. Does Catholicism NOT teach you to obey gods words and laws (dogmas)?

There is very little doubt that every religion indoctrinates. God isn’t presented as a possibility in a religious family, he is presented as fact. Unquestionable, unfallible fact along with the dogma that is associated with it. That is the essence of indoctrination. She made it very clear that SHE felt that there was no respect, but many times “respect” is a term used to keep people from questioning someones beliefs. Questioning beliefs is not disrespecful, it is intellectually honest.
The real point here beyond the religious debate here, is how can a difference of opinion lead to someone rejecting their own children. If my boy grows up to be a believer, i will disagree with him, I will debate him, I will guide him, but if he continues to think that he needs or wants religion, then I will still love and support him in every way. My son telling me that I am wrong is not disrespectful, it is his way of using the intellectual critical thinking tools that I taught him to have.
PLUS I love him, so nothing can cause me to reject him. If I feel he is on the wrong path, or even worse that he is the VICTIM of a cults attentions, I need to stay closer to him to provide what guidance I can in order to save him.Sending him away would serve no loving purpose.

peace

The very fact that you are here on a Catholic Forum expressing your opinions proves your statement to be in error.
“especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions” Catholicism does not discourage independent thought and we accept the opinions of others. Just because we do not necessarily agree with them does not make Catholics closed minded. I don’t know of any religious organization or for that matter ANY organization that does not have “dogmas”. Even the Boy Scouts have “dogmas” as outline in their pledge.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
It is an Absolute teaching of the Catholic Church that anyone wishing to become Catholic do so without any undue influence and to make that choice freely.

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32