Two-fingered gesture at Sign of Peace

[Cavaille-Coll]

I don’t want to stir up another Sign of Peace hornet’s nest, but does the Church have any opinion on the use of the V-fingered “peace” or “victory” sign when exchanging the Sign of Peace? I have not read any statements or commentary about it, but it seems to me more of a political gesture, and can be quite rude (at least in England) if the back of the hand faces forward. What is the origin of this gesture?

 

[benedictgal]

I don’t want to stir up another Sign of Peace hornet’s nest, but does the Church have any opinion on the use of the V-fingered “peace” or “victory” sign when exchanging the Sign of Peace? I have not read any statements or commentary about it, but it seems to me more of a political gesture, and can be quite rude (at least in England) if the back of the hand faces forward. What is the origin of this gesture?

My dad loves to listen to 69s on 6 on his Sirius Radio. He’ll sing along. But, he won’t be flashing any peace signs during Mass. When he began training the Altar servers at his old parish, the first thing he told them was that flashing the peace sign went out with Richard Nixon. The servers, evidently, had been doing this to family and friends from the altar. It was pretty bad; worse yet, the parents and pals were returning the gesture.

When my dad admonished them, the kids just looked at him. He told them that while fit and flare pants were back and tie-dyes were popular (stuff from the sixties), the peace sign was something that wasn’t coming back or coming into use during the Mass, at least not on his watch. The kids understood.

 

[ericka1701]

I don’t want to stir up another Sign of Peace hornet’s nest, but does the Church have any opinion on the use of the V-fingered “peace” or “victory” sign when exchanging the Sign of Peace? I have not read any statements or commentary about it, but it seems to me more of a political gesture, and can be quite rude (at least in England) if the back of the hand faces forward. What is the origin of this gesture?

Isn’t that particular gesture the American equivalent of the middle finger? Oy, I can imagine how it would be considered rude… When people have given me the peace sign during mass, being the Star Trek fan I am, I’ve slipped and have given people the Vulcan Salute.

God Bless!
Ericka

 

[benedictgal]

Isn’t that particular gesture the American equivalent of the middle finger? Oy, I can imagine how it would be considered rude… When people have given me the peace sign during mass, being the Star Trek fan I am, I’ve slipped and have given people the Vulcan Salute.

God Bless!
Ericka

That is funny. What happens if there is a fellow Trekker at Mass? Should we also say “Live long and propser?”

Of course, when I was in college, during game day our anticipated Mass was usually filled up with Texas football fans. You could see a sea of burnt orange in the pews. Sometimes I was tempted to flash a “hook 'em Horns” sign to my fellow Longhorns. I would hate to think what the Aggies would do.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Sometimes I was tempted to flash a “hook 'em Horns” sign to my fellow Longhorns. I would hate to think what the Aggies would do.

Isn’t that the one where the index finger and pinky are raised? Isn’t that also a satanic gesture representing the devil’s horns?

For the Trekkies, the “Vulcan salute” was devised by Leonard Nimoy from an ancient rabbinical gesture of blessing, where the priest would make this gesture with both hands, then touch the thumbs together. If anything, it is ironically somewhat more appropriate.

 

[AngelRose81]

I don’t want to stir up another Sign of Peace hornet’s nest, but does the Church have any opinion on the use of the V-fingered “peace” or “victory” sign when exchanging the Sign of Peace? I have not read any statements or commentary about it, but it seems to me more of a political gesture, and can be quite rude (at least in England) if the back of the hand faces forward. What is the origin of this gesture?

Some of our parishioners do this and it really annoys me. Every time I see someone do it, it reminds me of the paparazzi photos of people like Nicole Richie or Paris Hilton giving the peace sign. Just plain ole irritating if you ask me.

 

[Jimsdun]

Some of our parishioners do this and it really annoys me. Every time I see someone do it, it reminds me of the paparazzi photos of people like Nicole Richie or Paris Hilton giving the peace sign. Just plain ole irritating if you ask me.

Reminds me of the hippies protesting the Vietnam War. Yes, I’m old enough to remember that.

 

[Aramis]

Isn’t that the one where the index finger and pinky are raised? Isn’t that also a satanic gesture representing the devil’s horns?

If the thumb is out to the side, index and pinky striaght, and middle and ring tucked to palm, it’s ASL for “I Love You”…

Thumb tucked under, ISTR it being bull, as in male bovine.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Just to clarify – the “peace sign” made with the index and middle fingers extended in a “V” shape arose during the peace movements of the 1960’s. It is neither obscene nor rude in American culture. Since the actual form of the sign of peace is not specified in the GIRM (it’s culturally dependent) it is technically permissible to use the “V” peace sign. However, this is a symbol that arouse out of a particular sub-culture and is, therefore, not really a generally acceptable symbol in main-stream America.

As has been noted, the use of thumb, index and little fingers extended with middle and ring finger bent down is the Sign Language short hand for “I Love You” and, again, derives from a particular sub-culture; in this case the Deaf community (the capital “D” indicates a cultural deafness as opposed to a physical deafness). It, too, may be seen but really should be reserved for times when there are Deaf present at Mass. Even then it is more appropriate to sign “peace” than “I Love You.”

Deacon Ed

 

[ericka1701]

The rabbinical hand gesture that birthed the Vulcan Salute actually is a representation of the Hebrew letter shin, which is the first letter of the word “Shaddi” (sp?), which if I remember correctly is a word for God. And I do think it’s a bit more appropriate for that than the V peace sign. I did have someone tell me “Nanoo Nanoo” once when I flashed it…

God Bless!
Ericka

 

[Lizziebel]

All this talk about the Vulcan salute makes me wish again that I could make the gesture! But my ring fingers won’t stay next to my pinkies. Oh, well…

-grin-

Most of the time, husbands and wives kiss each other’s cheeks, and people just shake hands or wave at each other during the sign of peace at my husband’s parish (where I’m in RCIA). That’s basically what I’ve seen as well at the parish his parents attend.

 

[puzzleannie]

Isn’t that the one where the index finger and pinky are raised? Isn’t that also a satanic gesture representing the devil’s horns?

.

not if you are wearing orange, you raise both hands, fingers facing outward, and kind of punch the air with the salute. you may not yell Yeeeee Haaaaah in church. If you make this gesture in Oklahoma or Aggie territory, then yes, it is satanic

there used to be a little test that was popular in the junior high lunchroom, to see who can really do the Vulcan salute as apparently some people are genetically unable to hold pinkie and ringman together

 

[Lizziebel]

there used to be a little test that was popular in the junior high lunchroom, to see who can really do the Vulcan salute as apparently some people are genetically unable to hold pinkie and ringman together

I remember that from elementary school, and am definitely one of those people who genetically can’t hold pinkie and ring finger together. My ring finger just won’t follow the pinkie.

 

[dconklin]

I say it is cultural thing. I went to a mass in Singapore. For the sign of peace there was no hand shaking - just a little bow. I am sure God is just as happy with that. I flash the peace-sign to my daughter when she is in the choir. Oh, I am an ultra-cool dad too!

 

[yellowbicycle]

My sister and I used to attend the same parish, but she sang in the choir.
She and I would flash a little V peace sign to eachother. it was our secret code. But we were all sneaky about it - like pretending I was itching my cheek with my fingers in the shape of a v, or she would put her hair behind her ear with two fingers.
We think we’re very clever.
Worse, she and I, if together, can’t keep a straight face during the Alleluijah. And seriously, we’re both in our 30s. We should have worked the giggles out of our systems. Alone, we’re fine. Together, our brains break.

 

[benedictgal]

Isn’t that the one where the index finger and pinky are raised? Isn’t that also a satanic gesture representing the devil’s horns?

For the Trekkies, the “Vulcan salute” was devised by Leonard Nimoy from an ancient rabbinical gesture of blessing, where the priest would make this gesture with both hands, then touch the thumbs together. If anything, it is ironically somewhat more appropriate.

No. Our Hook em Horns was invented by a male Longhorn cheerlerader who wound up being a state district judge. The symbol that you are thinking of involves using the thumb and the pinky.

And yes, that was the backstory behind the Vulcan salute. Leonard Nimoy, if I listened to Adam Sandler’s song correctly, is Jewish. Oh, I am also a Trekkie.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

If you are ever in Los Angeles, try to visit the Wilshire Boulevard Temple. It is one of the main reform synagogues in LA and is a magnificent structure, not far from Hollywood. Apart from all of the ornamentation, much of which was donated by people like Max Factor or the Marx Brothers, there is a painting above the Ark showing two hands in the blessing position. Perhaps Nimoy attended services here and got the idea from that image.

 

[ericka1701]

That’s neat about the Wilshire Boulevard Temple… I would love to see it, and bask in my own “nerdiness” (which is the new cool… ).

Actually according to “I am Not Spock” and “I am Spock” (read them both), he got the idea when he was a child attending orthodox Jewish services. At this part of the service, the attendants were supposed to keep their eyes closed (imagine telling a child that and them actually doing that…) because if I remember correctly this blessing invoked the presence of God (and of course, one can’t see God and live to tell about it).

God Bless!
Ericka

 

[PoliSciProf]

I think that any hand signs are risky and not appropriate in Church. The V sign is too ideological for my taste but there are cultural issues involved as well. For instance, the V sign (palm out) is in the U.S;. a peace symbol, but in England, the V sign (palm in towards self) is a nasty vulgarity. Ditto, the A-OK sign in the U.S. is a very provocative gesture evoking the rectum in many countries.

 

[Matariel]

…being the Star Trek fan I am, I’ve slipped and have given people the Vulcan Salute.

To tell you the truth, the “Vulcan Salute” is actually originally a Jewish Cohen’s gesture of blessing.

In Christianity, in iconography and some bishops’ blessings, the two-fingers together (not in the V-shape) and thumb inward is a very ancient sign of Christian blessing.