Two Hardcore Videoed EWTN Homilies on How to Dress/Act for Mass

[Lea101]

I think that’s where we disagree. I agree there are moments of racism here and I get some people have a very eurocentric view on things, but let’s stick to the original topic.

I don’t think women should dress however they want, I do think the concept of modesty has its merit (although I admit my reasons for supporting modesty is not so biblical…lol). I don’t support forcing them to dress a certain way, but I think they should dress modestly. All men and women. Men’s immodesty is different though, it’s more of posing shirtless in a gym for Instagram than cleavage or short skirts

I think certain ideas of modesty lead to hostile sexism, but I don’t think modesty in itself is problematic

 

[LittleFlower]

I think that’s where we disagree. I agree there’s moments on racism here and I get some people have a very eurocentric view on things, but let’s stick to the original topic.

No, it is linked. Because if we think all the faithful think, dress, or are like white people—we get more than just this. We get alienation, murder, rape, and complete community breakdown.

I don’t think women should dress however they want, I do think the concept of modesty has its merit (although I admit my reasons for supporting modesty is not so biblical…lol). I don’t support forcing them to dress a certain way, but I think they should dress modestly. All men and women. Men’s immodesty is different though, it’s more of posing shirtless in a gym for Instagram than cleavage or short skirts.

Again, the last stage in modesty is dress.

And men, of course, have totally different standards to women.

What a joy!

 

[Lea101]

Your arguments are a lot more emotional than logical. I was in your exact shoes once, but I grew out of it eventually. Maybe this is a battle for Americans. I’m in an Asian country with many races, so Catholic is not synonymous with a white church for me. I’m not comfortable with the idea of blaming ‘whiteness’ for all of those things you mentioned. Especially in this topic. You have no idea how many brown men I’ve met who have horrible opinions about women’s clothing. Trust me when I say it’s not a race thing.

Men have different standards because women were definitely the objectified sex in society. Which is why our hemlines got shorter and shorter, more skin is exposed etc…there’s a reason why female fashion is incredibly different

 

[Duesenberg]

Given the comments on this thread I really have to say that I now understand why some people so terribly overreact when the topic of dressing modestly for Mass is discussed. It’s about power, control and sexism. It’s not about dressing modestly. It’s not about comporting oneself at Mass in gracious manner. It’s about power, control and sexism. I honestly never realized that before tonight.

I have viewed threads in the past were people (both male and female) were absolutely eviscerated for daring to mention the need for everyone to dress modestly for Mass. Now I understand the backstory.

In all sincerity, I wonder if pastors who struggle with getting members of their parish to dress modestly for Mass and to comport themselves in a gracious manner realize just how big of a part power, control and sexism play in what seemingly is a simple subject? This is very illuminating to me.

 

[Lea101]

So how many times are you going to say this until somebody gives you the attention you’re looking for?

Edit: this sounds harsher that I intended it to be, oops

 

[DarkLight]

Both men and women lust. What you describe is modest clothing. It’s a long was from immodest clothing that’s just wrong to wear to the Mass.

See this is the thing. Very many of us have faced the assumption that, if a man lusted after us, we must have been wearing something immodest.

And even if you lay that aside…you have to draw the line somewhere. If you’re basing it primarily on men’s lust, you’re going to hit the problem that men can lust no matter what. An outfit can always be made more modest. If I wear a skirt that is an inch above my knee, some may say that incites lust, I should wear it to the knee. But then another will say, no, it is better that it cover the knee completely while standing. And another that it should do so while sitting, and…you get the idea.

At some point you just have to say “Look, this is good enough. I am decently covered. I cannot be held responsible if I go around in normal attire and am still the object of lust. I have done my part, and if a man chooses still to undress me in his heart that is on him.”

As a practical matter, I think we ought also to give people the benefit of the doubt as much as we can, especially on matters of disagreement. Of course one should not show up in a bandeau top to Mass. But, for example, the ever-present debate over shoulders…it is better to look the other way if someone wears a sleeveless top.

 

[LittleFlower]

From Catholic Answers themselves, click here for source.

We are not called to be mimics of the Blessed Mother, dressing as would be appropriate for a first-century Palestinian peasant woman (e.g., long veils, skirts to the floor, sandals). We are called to imitate the Blessed Mother in her virtues. In terms of modesty, that might mean dressing in a way that is appropriate to one’s culture and circumstances, not drawing undue attention to oneself either in one’s dress or undress, remaining circumspect about one’s own choices, and not denouncing the reasonable choices of others.

Men have different standards because women were definitely the objectified sex in society.

Sure. I give you that. But maybe women also now feel the safest they have ever felt in expressing how they feel, and have more say in their dress matters?

Also, I recommend using the reply feature or quotes, as I can’t follow if you’re replying to me or others.

I was in your exact shoes once, but I grew out of it eventually.

I am not going to grow out of it. Women are murdered every day because of choices in dress, nail polish, dancing at clubs, and all sorts of other trivial other things. I will not stand by and watch the church community tell me and others what to wear.

Given the comments on this thread I really have to say that I now understand why some people so terribly overreact when the topic of dressing modestly for Mass is discussed. It’s about power, control and sexism. It’s not about dressing modestly. It’s not about comporting oneself at Mass in gracious manner. It’s about power, control and sexism. I honestly never realized that before tonight.

You don’t need to wear a sack to do this. You can be gracious before our Lord in tracksuit pants, in more reverence than those wearing priestly garbs sometimes.

simple subject?

It is not simple. Mate, women are the ones justifying their clothing articles in this thread. No man has said “I have a large package and prefer baggy cargo pants”. This thread is inherently sexist.

 

[Duesenberg]

See this is the thing. Very many of us have faced the assumption that, if a man lusted after us, we must have been wearing something immodest.

I have never made such an assumption.

If you’re basing it primarily on men’s lust,

I never set that constraint. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone else set that constraint here either.

It’s all about power, control and sexism.

 

[LittleFlower]

It’s all about power, control and sexism.

Can you please elaborate what you mean with those? Because I don’t think you think it means what I think it means.

 

[Duesenberg]

Can you please elaborate what you mean with those? Because I don’t think you think it means what I think it means.

Reference post #194.

 

[DarkLight]

Given the comments on this thread I really have to say that I now understand why some people so terribly overreact when the topic of dressing modestly for Mass is discussed. It’s about power, control and sexism. It’s not about dressing modestly. It’s not about comporting oneself at Mass in gracious manner. It’s about power, control and sexism. I honestly never realized that before tonight.

That’s exactly the thing - for many of us, the topic has been intimately connected to men trying to assert power over our bodies. It’s been connected to the message that we have to, not just clothe ourselves decently, but work to hide our bodies lets men be tempted. It’s connected to the idea that we don’t deserve to be treated with respect unless we meet some man’s standard of modest (if you replace “modesty” with “generosity” or “kindness”, I think the issue here becomes clear.

That’s why it becomes such a topic. Because I want to be the equal of the man sitting next to me in the pew. I don’t want to be expected to conform my worship, not around God and my own conscience and the teaching of the Church, but around his desires. I don’t want to be told, in effect, that I am only acceptable in church if I live up to what’s good enough for men, especially when it’s been made quite plain they consider themselves to owe no such duty to me.

For every man who is so concerned with modesty, I would ask you to be equally concerned with the women who struggle to approach God because of shame over their bodies, or confusion over a dizzying array of ever-changing standards of what is good enough, or self-hatred brought on by feeling forced to over-focus on her own physical appearance by the lustful interest of men. It’s not the easy, simple task that many men seem to think it is, but I have very rarely seen a man think he ought to be at all concerned that his focus on women’s bodies might be a stumbling block to her.

 

[LittleFlower]

This thread is remarkably illuminating. It makes me think that there are at least two other reasons why some bristle so strongly at any talk of dressing appropriately for Mass, dressing modestly in general as Catholic Christians, and the need for dress codes/uniforms for those involved in liturgical ministries.

I think some react so strongly because they view it as an attack on women, as an attack on their “sisterhood.” They view the male hierarchy of the Church as trying to regain control of something that is clearly out of control in many parishes – how to act and how to properly dress for the Mass.

Those that hold this view don’t seem to care how much immodest/inappropriate garb offends others, or the damage it can do (e.g. scandal, facilitation of sin, etc.) within the Church. They are quite happy with the apathy and the sorry state of things (in this context) today. So long as the male hierarchy is not controlling them when it comes to clothing! A perfect example of the cancerous fruits of sexism/radical feminism in the form of fighting over appropriate garb and personal conduct.

I think another reason is that down deep, some people are deeply ashamed (and carry great guilt) based on how they personally dress/act at Mass. Any criticism, no matter how general in nature is viewed as a personal attack on them and is met with overwhelming defensiveness.

I could never understand the crazy overreaction by some when the topic of how to behave at Mass or what to wear at Mass came up. I now have better insight due to this thread.

This is so out of the park incorrect, my dear friend.

@DarkLight in her post #245 nails it.

You need my thought and prayers, @Duesenberg if you think that feminism is the issue here.

 

[Lea101]

I think I accidentally clicked the wrong button, sorry about that!

I don’t think people, besides those uber trad fems, are asking us to dress like Mary. I dress in skinny jeans and t shirts/sweaters and I think I’m modest enough in my culture. Women should dress modestly while men just have to learn to deal with those they don’t. Why can’t we do both?

Women definitely use clothes now to express themselves, but my point is that the basic foundation of certain styles were sexism. In my opinion, I don’t see the point of me feeling empowered in expressing my sexuality, when my behavior is encouraging men to view me and other women as objects (which is also why I’m against strippers, prostitutes, half naked models etc). The end result of a woman choosing to be half naked and a woman being forced to pose half naked is ultimately the same to me, it doesn’t really change anything besides the woman’s feelings (if I’m going to be very simple in explaining this)

You seem to be against the idea of modesty in general. This is more a problem between you and God, rather than the physical church. Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Duesenberg]

That’s exactly the thing - for many of us, the topic has been intimately connected to men trying to assert power over our bodies. It’s been connected to the message that we have to, not just clothe ourselves decently, but work to hide our bodies lets men be tempted. It’s connected to the idea that we don’t deserve to be treated with respect unless we meet some man’s standard of modest (if you replace “modesty” with “generosity” or “kindness”, I think the issue here becomes clear.

You add further proof that this is about power, control and sexism – what some would call “reverse-sexism.”

That’s why it becomes such a topic. Because I want to be the equal of the man sitting next to me in the pew. I don’t want to be expected to conform my worship, not around God and my own conscience and the teaching of the Church, but around his desires. I don’t want to be told, in effect, that I am only acceptable in church if I live up to what’s good enough for men, especially when it’s been made quite plain they consider themselves to owe no such duty to me.

So you admit to having issues with the all-male hierarchy of the Church? That’s fascinating to read. It’s also terribly deleterious to those who cling to such beliefs.

For every man who is so concerned with modesty, I would ask you to be equally concerned with the women who struggle to approach God because of shame over their bodies, or confusion over a dizzying array of ever-changing standards of what is good enough, or self-hatred brought on by feeling forced to over-focus on her own physical appearance by the lustful interest of men. It’s not the easy, simple task that many men seem to think it is, but I have very rarely seen a man think he ought to be at all concerned that his focus on women’s bodies might be a stumbling block to her.

I wonder if some women intentionally dress inappropriately for Mass as a protest of sorts? I really don’t care except for those who enter the sanctuary during the Mass. That’s why I feel there should be a strict dress code for both sexes or better yet, a uniform for those involved in liturgical ministries. I wonder how this struggle for power and control through sexism impacts different lay ministries within the Church? Something to ponder, that’s for certain.

 

[LittleFlower]

You seem to be against the idea of modesty in general. This is more a problem between you and God, rather than the physical church. Or am I misunderstanding you?

You are misunderstanding me. Again, modesty in terms of dress is the last stage of it all, and again modesty in dress looks different for each person. What you find immodest, I may find perfectly alright. The only person who can tell is the person wearing it.

You are making judgement calls for people and telling them what to do wear.

If you reduce modesty down to dress, then I think you may have a problem. I have no issue for everyone to decide what is modest by themselves.

I will not impose my ideas of modesty onto anyone else.

Why are you so keen to do so?

The end result of a woman choosing to be half naked

If a woman is choosing to be half naked, in free choice, than so be it. Are nudist beaches wrong? Then a lot of Germans will be going to Hell.

Our reduction of the human body to a merely sexual function is also not correct. Bodies do a lot more, this is similar to the breastfeeding in public debate—yes boobies can be used to feed babies. The outcry when women started doing this was horrifying.

 

[alice24]

Thought of the nudist beaches, too A friend of mine, who was raised in siberia in the 90´s, is perfectly fine with going to bania, the russian sauna, with her family, the male relatives, too.

 

[LittleFlower]

Thought of the nudist beaches, too A friend of mine, who was raised in siberia in the 90´s, is perfectly fine with going to bania, the russian sauna, with her family, the male relatives, too.

I know, right? Some here would probably faint and pray a rosary at the mere thought of that, bless their hearts!

 

[DarkLight]

So you admit to having issues with the all-male hierarchy of the Church? That’s fascinating to read. It’s also terribly deleterious to those who cling to such beliefs.

I have absolutely no idea where you got that bit from what I said.

I’m not talking about who is and isn’t ordained. Ordained or not, I am still a child of God by virtue of the same baptism. The point is, I’m not some different category of Catholic than my brother in Christ in the next pew. And I don’t particularly appreciate having burdens piled upon my back while his role and responsibilities are ignored. I also don’t appreciate the idea that random men ought to take it upon themselves to harp on how I should behave for their benefit while, again, ignoring any sort of real consideration or responsibility towards me.

(A note: the job of the priest here is to communicate the moral teaching of the Church, and to see to the needs of all his flock. I have no issues with that.)

I wonder if some women intentionally dress inappropriately for Mass as a protest of sorts? I really don’t care except for those who enter the sanctuary during the Mass. That’s why I feel there should be a strict dress code for both sexes or better yet, a uniform. I wonder how this struggle for power and control through sexism impacts different lay ministries within the Church? Something to ponder, that’s for certain.

I think what you’re not getting is most of us wear what we wear because we think it’s appropriate. There’s no grand why here other than we’re comfortable and we think it’s acceptable! Honestly, far too many men seem to get this silly idea into their heads that everything women do is some sort of game about them.

 

[Lea101]

I’m clearly talking about dress here, not behavior or attitude.

Modesty is very subjective, but I do believe each person should comply with their culture’s expectation of it. You should be wearing long skirts in Saudi Arabia, for example. It’s a judgement call everyone has to make. Not everyone will agree, but you would be lying if you say a half naked woman in, say, Mass would think she’s being modest.

I’m not asking for strict guidelines here, lol. Take this anger elsewhere…

Again, modesty depends on the culture. Walking top less in a tribe is fine, walking topless to the mall here isn’t. General guidelines for mass (eg no shorts, no bare midriffs etc) is perfectly reasonable. I don’t think they should be kicked out though.

 

[LittleFlower]

You’ve nailed it! @DarkLight you’re better at explaining than I am in this exact moment.