Two historical questions on St Augustine and forced conversions

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  1. “For woman is not the image of God, whereas the man alone is the image of God”. It is mentioned in a book called Who Cooked the Last Supper (written by a feminist) but I can barely find any information on it on the net. Can someone verify if Augustine actually said this?
  2. Also the book claims that Christianity forced the early pagans to convert to Christianity. How much truth is there to this statement? Did we ever use violence to convert the early pagans, did we destroy their tables or did we treat them as second class citizens just because they weren’t Christian? The book quotes this line from acts to prove that "Christianity no less than Judaism declared from the outset that the Great Goddess “whom Asia and all the world worshippeth” must be persecuted “and all her magnificence destroyed” (Acts 19, 27)."I remember reading about a few barbarian tribes undergoing forced conversions to Christianity but that’s about it.
Thank you.
 
Also the book claims that Christianity forced the early pagans to convert to Christianity. How much truth is there to this statement?
We probably have different definitions of the word “early.” Early Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire. To be a Christian could easily merit death (in nasty ways).

The Emperor Constantine (and Maximilian) published the Edict of Milan in 313 AD. By my own personal definition, this was the end of the “early” age. I think it is the start of yours.

The Edict of Milan ended all religious persecution in the Roman Empire. Constantine himself converted to Christianity (but still harboring some strange ideas), and many pagans followed (some still harboring some strange ideas, but willfully converting).

In the ensuing centuries, Christians compelled many thousands (or millions) of pagans to convert with a sword at their throats. These were known as “sword-point conversions.” Convert, or die. It was very effective.

This same technique has also been effectively used by protestants and Muslims (and, I am sure, by many others). Catholicism is older than Islam, and (much) older than protestantism, so there have surely been more examples of it being practiced by Catholics.

So what?
 
We probably have different definitions of the word “early.” Early Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire. To be a Christian could easily merit death (in nasty ways).
Sorry, I meant Christians who lived post Constantine’s legalization of Christianity.
In the ensuing centuries, Christians compelled many thousands (or millions) of pagans to convert with a sword at their throats. These were known as “sword-point conversions.” Convert, or die. It was very effective.
Really? Where can I read about this and where these actions condemned by the church during that time?

Also is there any truth to the early Christians view women’s bodies as “sacks of manure”?
 
Really? Where can I read about this and where these actions condemned by the church during that time?
Seriously? You can’t use Google? Go to “dubyah-dubyah-dubyah-DOT-google-DOT-com” and type
swordpoint christian conversions
Glancing at the first page, about half of the links are authentic.
Also is there any truth to the early Christians view women’s bodies as “sacks of manure”?
That is one that I have never heard. I doubt that many men would want to stick their… umm, well, have any sort of contact with a “sack of manure.”
I suspect you are baiting me. You expected someone to contest that there were no such thing as forced Christian conversions. I failed to rise to your expectations (because there certainly were), so you throw up some absurd new charge, just to see if I will concede to that as well.

Fine, I concede. I accept the “fact” that many Early Christians referred to their women’s bodies as “sacks of manure.”

So what? Is there some point of Catholic *Doctrine *that you wish to discuss in this Forum which is dedicated to Catholic Doctrine?
 
Seriously? You can’t use Google? Go to “dubyah-dubyah-dubyah-DOT-google-DOT-com” and type
Glancing at the first page, about half of the links are authentic.
Sorry about this, I’m aware of google but at the same time I’m really really wary of internet sources that talk about Christianity in a bad light, for while a lot of them may be true, a lot of them are also false or exaggerated. I was hoping that you would post your source but looking back I should’ve been more clear about that. I’ve read a few of your posts before (together with EricFilmer) and I see you as a reliable and trustworthy source of information. What I’m saying is, if I got to read your source material I would take in the information with little skepticism, that’s why I wanted it.
That is one that I have never heard. I doubt that many men would want to stick their… umm, well, have any sort of contact with a “sack of manure.” I suspect you are baiting me. You expected someone to contest that there were no such thing as forced Christian conversions. I failed to rise to your expectations (because there certainly were), so you throw up some absurd new charge, just to see if I will concede to that as well.
Fine, I concede. I accept the “fact” that many Early Christians referred to their women’s bodies as “sacks of manure.”
What? No, it’s in the book. Legit.

Who Wrote the Last Supper. Chapter 4: The Fall of Woman, page 96.

"So powerful was this fetish of virginity that a new ideal gathered momentum, that of preserving it in perpetuity. One early Christian father, St. Jerome, was active in persuading fathers to dedicate their daughters to nunneries at birth, while another, St. Martin of Tours, constantly compared the “pure ungrazed field of virginity” to “the field of marriage torn to by pigs and cattle of fornication”. As this shows, the Christian church had from its origins a particular problem with women’s sexuality: “to embrace a woman,” wrote Odo of Cluny in the 12th century, “is to embrace a sack of manure.” The “sack of manure” metaphor for women’s bodies was an obsession with the early Christians: “If a woman’s bowels were cut open,” pronounced the monk Roger de Caen, “you would see what filth is covered by her white skin. If a fine crimson cloth covered a pile of foul dung, would anyone be foolish enough to love the dung because of it.”.

The reason I asked this was because the statement was so ridiculous, yet at the same time, you said that widespread forced conversions did happen. So that got me thinking if that’s true, then maybe this absurd claim is also true. Although I was also hoping for someone else to respond and post that widespread christian forced conversions did not happen to that extent (as you said millions), never did I even expect someone else to post and say that forced Christian conversions never happened (as i said, i already knew that there were forced barbarian conversions).
So what? Is there some point of Catholic *Doctrine *that you wish to discuss in this Forum which is dedicated to Catholic Doctrine?
I posted this thread under Apologetics which according to this forum, pertains to any discussion about the “Defense of the Faith, doctrines & dogma, historical controversies”.
 
Really? Where can I read about this and where these actions condemned by the church during that time?
I would like to see an answer to this too, because this one is no good on my conscience. When these sword point conversions were happening was the Church condemning them?
 
I would like to see an answer to this too, because this one is no good on my conscience. When these sword point conversions were happening was the Church condemning them?
There are things happening even today in the Church that the official Church teaching condemns and rightly so. What many people fail to see is the Church is both earthly and Divine. Many of the faithful on earth have done and do things that would make the Saints roll in their graves. I don’t understand how that can happen and the Church still be regarded as “Holy” but it does and that’s as far as my knowledge of the situation goes.🤷
 
When these sword point conversions were happening was the Church condemning them?
If they were condemned by the Church, they would not have happened. People didn’t do this for entertainment.

A Pope might not have always given his official blessing (though he sometimes did - see Crusades), but a lot of this was done with the knowledge (and presumed assent) of various Popes.
 
The reason I asked this was because the statement was so ridiculous
You got that right! I thought you were pulling my leg!
yet at the same time, you said that widespread forced conversions did happen. So that got me thinking if that’s true, then maybe this absurd claim is also true.
The Church has been no stranger to absurdity (see: Cadaver Synod - that one is *really *bizarre - but it was real). “Sacks of manure” seems pretty tame compared to that.
 
You got that right! I thought you were pulling my leg!

The Church has been no stranger to absurdity (see: Cadaver Synod - that one is *really *bizarre - but it was real). “Sacks of manure” seems pretty tame compared to that.
Someone taught us that Constantine marched his whole army through a large body of water to “baptize” them. Only problem, they went into the water dry sinners and came out wet ones!😦
 
If they were condemned by the Church, they would not have happened. People didn’t do this for entertainment.

A Pope might not have always given his official blessing (though he sometimes did - see Crusades), but a lot of this was done with the knowledge (and presumed assent) of various Popes.
Did the Pope’s actually believe they were doing a righteous deed then? How were they interpreting Scripture then and why do they think differently now?
 
The Edict of Milan ended all religious persecution in the Roman Empire. Constantine himself converted to Christianity (but still harboring some strange ideas), and many pagans followed (some still harboring some strange ideas, but willfully converting).

In the ensuing centuries, Christians compelled many thousands (or millions) of pagans to convert with a sword at their throats. These were known as “sword-point conversions.” Convert, or die. It was very effective.

This same technique has also been effectively used by protestants and Muslims (and, I am sure, by many others). Catholicism is older than Islam, and (much) older than protestantism, so there have surely been more examples of it being practiced by Catholics.

So what?
So what? So what?

The Catholic Church is meant to be the truth. You would think they had a better sense of right and wrong than the Protestants and Muslims. Are you trying to say that sword-point conversions were justified?
 
Has anyone posted an example of one of these sword-point conversions?
 
If I did I’d probably get booted off this thread.
So I will let someone else do it.
I would like to know for the sake of learning purposes.

Isn’t it important that in the Apologetic’s section that these issues be brought up so that they may be defended?
 
I would like to know for the sake of learning purposes.

Isn’t it important that in the Apologetic’s section that these issues be brought up so that they may be defended?
So we’ll let someone else answer the question. I have enough infractions for one day.
 
The only trouble with these types of ‘historical questions’ is that people simply won’t address the context. As far as they’re concerned, anybody who ever lived has exactly the same kind of knowledge and experience of life as somebody living in AD2013 in the U.S. or Europe. To them, a 5th century Briton would have had the life experience of 5 centuries of religious tolerance (as we in AD2013 have had), the literacy to read the Bible (as we have had), the kind of upbringing, including free schooling and the opportunity to choose what we wish to do, as we have had; the kind of ingrained teaching regarding equal rights as we have had, the same disgust for slavery as we have had for 150 years. . . etc. etc. etc.

Try to explain to these ‘seekers’ that a 5th century male Briton whose wife had no property of her own once she married him, who could not write his own name, who had been bred to soldiering, whose ideas of loyalty were based on a feudal type system, who lived in a community the type of which was familiar as that of not just decades but MILLENNIA, being a simple rural village, in which people BARTERED, in which things we think of as necessities were unknown, etc. . .

that this person might have a totally different outlook on what things like good or evil could DO to themselves and others than we do. …

And they’ll look at you as if you had two heads.

It’s SO much easier to assume that Piers the plowman back THEN was just like Hunter the owner of the dairy co-op today. Hunter, of course, has all the literacy, the freedom, the knowledge etc as any other person in AD2013. Piers of say the 9th century is no less knowledgeable than HIS compatriots, and none of them are ‘DUMBER’ than we are today, but they have some different ideas on fundamental things, and trying to hold them to ‘our’ standard is ridiculous.

For one thing, PIERS would find our current attitude toward abortion to be BARBARIC and diabolical! (not to mention ‘gay marriage’)😃
 
Why would you get booted off this thread? Is it against the TOS?
I have gotten booted off other threads and the threads were subsequently closed. To prevent that I am going to leave of my own accord. Good day!
 
  1. “For woman is not the image of God, whereas the man alone is the image of God”. It is mentioned in a book called Who Cooked the Last Supper (written by a feminist) but I can barely find any information on it on the net. Can someone verify if Augustine actually said this? Thank you.
Greetings in Christ, Cresh!

Augustine did write these words, but I’m afraid that his meaning has escaped the author of this book. To understand what he’s saying, you would want to read all of Book 12 of On the Trinity. And if things aren’t making sense, you could back up and read Book 11.

In Book 12, Augustine explains that “whatever we have in the mind common with the beasts, thus much is rightly said to belong to the outer man” and is therefore not of the image of God (, Bk. 12, Ch. 1.1On the Trinity). Both man and beast “are able both to perceive things corporeal from without, through the senses of the body, and to fix them in the memory, and remember them, and in them to seek after things suitable, and shun things inconvenient”; but man alone uses “higher reason to judge of these corporeal things according to incorporeal and eternal reasons” (, Bk. 12, Ch. 2.2On the Trinity). This takes us back to Book 11, to see how the two functions of the mind operate:

“What then a body in place is to the bodily sense, that, the similitude of a body in memory is to the eye of the mind; and what the vision of one who looks at a thing is to that appearance of the body from which the sense is informed, that, the vision of a concipient is to the image of the body established in the memory, from which the eye of the mind is informed; and what the intention of the will is towards a body seen and the vision to be combined with it, in order that a certain unity of three things may therein take place, although their nature is diverse, that, the same intention of the will is towards combining the image of the body which is in the memory, and the vision of the concipient, that is, the form which the eye of the mind has taken in returning to the memory, in order that here too a certain unity may take place of three things, not now distinguished by diversity of nature, but of one and the same substance; because this whole is within, and the whole is one mind. …] And unless the will for the greatest part dwells in the higher and interior things, and unless that will itself, which is accommodated either to bodies without, or to the images of them within, refers whatever it receives in them to a better and truer life, and rests in that end by gazing at which it judges that those things ought to be done; what else do we do, but that which the apostle prohibits us from doing, when he says, ‘Be not conformed to this world’?” (On the Trinity, Bk. 11, Ch. 4.7 & 5.8).

Augustine goes on to say that we need the functions of the mind that we share in common with the beasts in order to get to heaven because that “cognizance of things temporal and changeable …] is necessary for managing the affairs of this life” (, Bk. 12, Ch. 12.17On the Trinity).

This should make us think back to what he had said earlier about Martha and Mary, and Martha’s “ministering to a need”:

“For while Martha, her sister, was cumbered about necessary business, which, although good and useful, yet, when rest shall have succeeded, is to pass away, she herself was resting in the word of the Lord. And so the Lord replied to Martha, when she complained that her sister did not help her: ‘Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her’ (cf. Luke 10:30-42). He did not say that Martha was acting a bad part; but that ‘best part that shall not be taken away.’ For that part which is occupied in the ministering to a need shall be ‘taken away’ when the need itself has passed away. Since the reward of a good work that will pass away is rest that will not pass away” (, Bk. 1, Ch. 10.20On the Trinity).

Here, “Mary” is the mind set on eternal things and “Martha” is the mind diverted by the necessities of life. Of the “mind” exhibited by Mary, Augustine would see an image of God. But of the mind exhibited by Martha, Augustine could say that “in that other [part of the human mind] which is diverted from [the contemplation of eternal things] in the dealing with temporal things, although there may be a trinity, yet there cannot be found an image of God” if not ordered in its actions to God as its end by the “mind” of Mary (, Bk. 12, Ch. 4.4On the Trinity).

Coming back now… And so, Augustine has built up his image of the mind as divided in function but not in nature:

“And as the twain is one flesh in the case of male and female, so in the mind one nature embraces our intellect and action, or our counsel and performance, or our reason and rational appetite, or whatever other more significant terms there may be by which to express them; so that, as it was said of the former, ‘And they two shall be in one flesh’ (Genesis 2:24), it may be said of these, they two are in one mind” (, Bk. 12, Ch. 3.3On the Trinity).
 
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