Two Jewish Questions

[rinnie]

It’s important to remember that we don’t consider people disadvantaged by not being Jews (it’s certainly not what the concept of ‘chosen people’ is about), a Christian or Muslim has as much hope for the ‘World to Come’ as we have and nobody is doomed for not wanting to be a Jew. We don’t share Christian concepts of ‘original sin’ and ‘salvation’.

Since we don’t think people are doomed for not being Jewish, there’s no equivalent to the Christian or Muslim belief in a need for others to ‘accept Christ’ or ‘accept Islam.’

No.

Just curious do you ask others to pray for you, in this life I mean?

 

[HowkeCotchmeEye]

Just curious do you ask others to pray for you, in this life I mean?

Not the person you were asking, but I wanted to share this piece from the Judaism 101 website:

Most of our prayers are expressed in the first person plural, “us” instead of “me,” and are recited on behalf of all of the Jewish people. This form of prayer emphasizes our responsibility for one another and our interlinked fates.

In Judaism, prayer is largely a group activity rather than an individual activity. Although it is permissible to pray alone and it fulfills the obligation to pray, you should generally make every effort to pray with a group, short of violating a commandment to do so.

I’m sure that some Jews do ask others to pray for them, but I think usually they’re praying in a group, as a whole.

 

[rinnie]

Not the person you were asking, but I wanted to share this piece from the Judaism 101 website:

Most of our prayers are expressed in the first person plural, “us” instead of “me,” and are recited on behalf of all of the Jewish people. This form of prayer emphasizes our responsibility for one another and our interlinked fates.

In Judaism, prayer is largely a group activity rather than an individual activity. Although it is permissible to pray alone and it fulfills the obligation to pray, you should generally make every effort to pray with a group, short of violating a commandment to do so.

I’m sure that some Jews do ask others to pray for them, but I think usually they’re praying in a group, as a whole.

Thanks

 

[Todd977]

A Chasidic Jew is an Orthodox Jew.

Think of it like: Christian > Catholic > Dominican

Jewish > Orthodox > Chasidic

That’s not perfect, of course (I know a lot of Catholics would say there is no distinction between Christian and Catholic because Catholicism IS the Christian church, etc etc.) but that’s the best I can do!

Thank you for the info. I’m, obviously, not familiar with the various divisions, beliefs and practices within Judaism. I know we can’t trust everything we read on the Internet but, if the Wikipedia article I linked to is correct and there is a difference of opinion and practice concerning the intercession of the saints between Chasidic Judaism and what the article refers to as “Orthodox” Judaism, then perhaps by “Orthodox” Judaism the author of the article meant “Modern Orthodoxy” a.k.a. “Modern Orthodox Judaism.” I don’t know.

 

[psalm90]

One of the more dynamic Jewish-Catholic speakers I’ve heard is Roy Shoeman (“showman”). Look him up on youtube for various of his conversion stories. He became Catholic but did not cease being Jewish. He has some very insightful comments to make about Romans 11, for example.

There’s a book I never read anybody refer to in these forums, The Jewish Annotated New Testament, which is a Jewish commentary on the New Testament.

someplace in there, it makes the point that 1) there were Jewish-Christians and 2) that they never were required by Paul to give up their Jewish practices. Now, for Gentiles, Paul is certainly adamant that they not be circumcised or practice Jewish customs, but not for native Jewish-Christians. (This is the best that I recall from a footnote on this subject.)

The preceding comments in this thread demonstrate something that seems to be important in the New Testament about that issue, Gentiles not following Jewish practices and customs: others previously, especially our Jewish commenters, have pointed out that you don’t have to “become” Jewish to be saved. That, in a nutshell, is why Paul says so in the NT. In fact, what one previous comment said was, if you truly wanted to become Jewish, you’d have to follow ALL the Jewish laws in the Torah.

Prayer to the saints is embedded and layered over virtually all of Catholicism, but strictly speaking, I don’t ever recall being taught that I MUST pray to Mary or any saint. Intercessory prayer is described in the NT and we do pray for others. I think the saints do pray for us, I’m not sure that we have to pray to them to have their intercession. Enjoying the beatific vision as they do, I’m sure their stray moments would be filled with praying that all in this life would be blessed to enjoy it.

The Catholic Church teaches we are bound, for example, by the Ten Commandments, but one of the previous posts mentions that we (mostly) Gentile Christians – to Judaism – are NOT required to obey any of those commandments, only the Noahide covenant. The Catholic Church invokes Tradition to sort out which of the Torah commands we are to obey and which we are not so required to obey. This distinction is not so clear in the Catholic Church as it is in Judaism. Then, too, it is Talmudic interpretation which tells us what the Noahide code is, to begin with. It doesn’t pop out at you from the Jewish Scriptures.

 

[psalm90]

Judaism seems inherently to be a non-“evangelistic” religions simply for geographical reasons – the whole world cannot come to Jerusalem three times a year for the prescribed feast. So – it seems to me – Judaism was intended and destined by God to be enhanced or transformed into Christianity (as it says in Joel, “a new covenant” ) (see Roy Shoeman on this for elaboration) as the universal religion. And THAT (or THIS) is the evangelistic religion to which all should come, even, eventually (romans 11) the Jews.

 

[psalm90]

(I hope I’m still on topic) Lastly, we DON’T live just by the Noahide code or covenant. Jesus gave us a new command, to love each other as He has loved us.

 

[jas84173]

Judaism is kind of like Zoroastrianism as it is an ethnoreligious group. Conversion is not pushed because Jewish people tend to believe everyone can be saved but they have some sort of special bond with God that others need not to burden themselves. Conversion is possible but you have to go to them and they really question you as to why you want to be Jewish and what your true motives are. Christianity and Islam have always been religions who have tried to convert people mainly because they basically tell followers to go proclaim the 'truth" of their beliefs. Judaism just has different view. A true follower of Judaism has to follow many laws in the Torah, whereas Jewish people believe other believers of faiths different can find God but only have to follow the ten commandments so it’s actually easier to not be Jewish. There is some debate however, especially with regards to Zoroastrianism which has a dwindling population. Some estimates say there are only 200,000 in the world. They have never been a faith to allow conversions but are born into it and has led to a debate within the religion in recent years whether conversion should be allowed.

 

[Peter_J]

As I understand it, the closest thing in Judaism to a saint in the Catholic sense are the hasidim. According to this Haaretz article, Jews don’t pray to saints, but they may pray at their graves.

Not to belabor the point, but I’d like to piggy back on this discussion and ask (for anyone who is Jewish or just knowledgable about Judaism): would it make any difference if the question was do Jews talk to saints?

 

[drblank1]

Judaism seems inherently to be a non-“evangelistic” religions simply for geographical reasons – the whole world cannot come to Jerusalem three times a year for the prescribed feast. So – it seems to me – Judaism was intended and destined by God to be enhanced or transformed into Christianity (as it says in Joel, “a new covenant” ) (see Roy Shoeman on this for elaboration) as the universal religion. And THAT (or THIS) is the evangelistic religion to which all should come, even, eventually (romans 11) the Jews.

Coming from my information technology background, I have always consider Christianity to be Judaism 2.0.

From personal experience, there is an exclusivity to the Jewish people as well. I tried to date a Jewish girl once and her parents said no because I was not Jewish.

From my perspective as a Christian, they are still God’s chosen people and I hold them in high regard.

 

[LtTony]

It’s important to remember that we don’t consider people disadvantaged by not being Jews (it’s certainly not what the concept of ‘chosen people’ is about), a Christian or Muslim has as much hope for the ‘World to Come’ as we have and nobody is doomed for not wanting to be a Jew. We don’t share Christian concepts of ‘original sin’ and ‘salvation’.

Since we don’t think people are doomed for not being Jewish, there’s no equivalent to the Christian or Muslim belief in a need for others to ‘accept Christ’ or ‘accept Islam.’

Do Jews believe in Heaven? Hell? Satan?

 

[brishen]

It’s important to remember that we don’t consider people disadvantaged by not being Jews (it’s certainly not what the concept of ‘chosen people’ is about), a Christian or Muslim has as much hope for the ‘World to Come’ as we have and nobody is doomed for not wanting to be a Jew. We don’t share Christian concepts of ‘original sin’ and ‘salvation’.

Since we don’t think people are doomed for not being Jewish, there’s no equivalent to the Christian or Muslim belief in a need for others to ‘accept Christ’ or ‘accept Islam.’

No.

One thing I definitely miss about Judaism…

 

[Kaninchen]

Do Jews believe in Heaven? Hell? Satan?

Discussion of most issues in Judaism has a tendency to: “Well, on the one hand, while on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand . . .” so the answer to each aspect of your question is “sort of but it depends on what you mean by . . . . and that’s not the important thing.”

So, while belief in an afterlife (World to Come) is part of Judaism, it isn’t a focus of Jewish life - we do what we do because that’s what we do (living ethical monotheism). Hell isn’t a place of eternal anything and Satan isn’t a kind of extremely naughty anti-God.

 

[Moses613]

Not to belabor the point, but I’d like to piggy back on this discussion and ask (for anyone who is Jewish or just knowledgable about Judaism): would it make any difference if the question was do Jews talk to saints?

As touched on earlier in the thread, Chassidic Jews do request from saints who are no longer living to pray for them.

(There is no canonization of saints in Judaism. A saint is just someone you recognize as having been especially righteous, whether still alive or not.)

That is a practice that is frowned upon and avoided in many Orthodox, but non-Chassidic, circles - as veering too close to idolatry. But the Chassidim would argue that they are simply requesting that the souls of the deceased intercede with God on their behalf; not that the souls have any independent power to do anything.

To clarify, Chassidism is a “brand” of orthodoxy, so to speak. They are defined by a set of philosophies rather than a certain level of stringency in religious observance.

 

[Moses613]

Do Jews believe in Heaven? Hell? Satan?

These terms have Christian connotations. Their counterparts in Judaism would be:

World to Come (Olam ha-Ba): The existence of the soul after death, which experiences the eternal joy of closeness to God in corresponding measure to its righteousness and purification during life.

Gehinnom: The soul’s experience of punishment after death. For most people, this is a temporary state, akin to what Christians call purgatory. It (painfully) purifies the soul of its imperfections in preparation for coming to the World to Come. Jewish tradition states that most sinners cannot “stay” in Gehinnom for longer than 12 months. Certain categories of the most egregious sinners (yeah… it has to be really bad) stay in Gehinnom indefinitely until their souls are completely destroyed. We don’t talk too much about that.

Satan: Well, this is actually a Hebrew word and appears a few times in the Jewish Bible. It comes from the root s-t-n, to “lead astray”. The Satan in Judaism is completely unlike the Christian figure. Satan is synonymous with the Evil Inclination - it is an opposing force tempting us to do evil that we must overcome. The Satan is in no way an independent power separate from God, “rebelling” against God or not doing His will. It is a conceptual way to understand and sort of personify the natural human inclination toward evil, which is dictated by God as a test for man.

Contemporary Jews hardly ever talk about “the Satan” (when we do, it’s with the definite article “the” - we treat it less like a proper name than Christians); typically we talk about the “Yetzer Ha-Ra” (Evil Inclination). I don’t know why exactly, although I have my theories.

Note: We do not pronouce “Satan” the English way. It’s “sah-TAHN” with the same “a” in “car”, or the traditional Ashkenazi pronunciation is “SUH-tuhn”.

 

[meltzerboy]

These terms have Christian connotations. Their counterparts in Judaism would be:

World to Come (Olam ha-Ba): The existence of the soul after death, which experiences the eternal joy of closeness to God in corresponding measure to its righteousness and purification during life.

Gehinnom: The soul’s experience of punishment after death. For most people, this is a temporary state, akin to what Christians call purgatory. It (painfully) purifies the soul of its imperfections in preparation for coming to the World to Come. Jewish tradition states that most sinners cannot “stay” in Gehinnom for longer than 12 months. Certain categories of the most egregious sinners (yeah… it has to be really bad) stay in Gehinnom indefinitely until their souls are completely destroyed. We don’t talk too much about that.

Satan: Well, this is actually a Hebrew word and appears a few times in the Jewish Bible. It comes from the root s-t-n, to “lead astray”. The Satan in Judaism is completely unlike the Christian figure. Satan is synonymous with the Evil Inclination - it is an opposing force tempting us to do evil that we must overcome. The Satan is in no way an independent power separate from God, “rebelling” against God or not doing His will. It is a conceptual way to understand and sort of personify the natural human inclination toward evil, which is dictated by God as a test for man.

Contemporary Jews hardly ever talk about “the Satan” (when we do, it’s with the definite article “the” - we treat it less like a proper name than Christians); typically we talk about the “Yetzer Ha-Ra” (Evil Inclination). I don’t know why exactly, although I have my theories.

Note: We do not pronouce “Satan” the English way. It’s “sah-TAHN” with the same “a” in “car”, or the traditional Ashkenazi pronunciation is “SUH-tuhn”.

However, is not the Yetzer Ha-Ra (evil inclination) also thought to be NECESSARY provided it follows a constructive pathway? For example, aggression can be channeled in a constructive way to enable survival of self and others, as well as thriving. In other words, without the “evil inclination,” we might remain totally passive rather than fighting for our rights. Thus the testing of HaSatan strengthens our resolve and courage in facing life’s challenges.

 

[meltzerboy]

As touched on earlier in the thread, Chassidic Jews do request from saints who are no longer living to pray for them.

(There is no canonization of saints in Judaism. A saint is just someone you recognize as having been especially righteous, whether still alive or not.)

That is a practice that is frowned upon and avoided in many Orthodox, but non-Chassidic, circles - as veering too close to idolatry. But the Chassidim would argue that they are simply requesting that the souls of the deceased intercede with God on their behalf; not that the souls have any independent power to do anything.

To clarify, Chassidism is a “brand” of orthodoxy, so to speak. They are defined by a set of philosophies rather than a certain level of stringency in religious observance.

My grandmother used to pray for intervention of her deceased parents (whether or not they may be considered “saints”). She was traditional Orthodox, not Chassidic. Would you say this is “kosher”?

 

[Moses613]

However, is not the Yetzer Ha-Ra (evil inclination) also thought to be NECESSARY provided it follows a constructive pathway? For example, aggression can be channeled in a constructive way to enable survival of self and others, as well as thriving. In other words, without the “evil inclination,” we might remain totally passive rather than fighting for our rights. Thus the testing of HaSatan strengthens our resolve and courage in facing life’s challenges.

I agree, meltzerboy. In fact, there is a Midrash that says that during every day of creation God said “it is good” but on the 6th day he said “VERY good”. The Rabbis ask: What was unique about the 6th day that made it very good? The creation of the evil inclination. Wow! It is our constant challenge to use it in the right ways.

 

[Moses613]

My grandmother used to pray for intervention of her deceased parents (whether or not they may be considered “saints”). She was traditional Orthodox, not Chassidic. Would you say this is “kosher”?

It depends kind of on what her intentions were during the prayer, which we can probably not know. But I don’t think any Chassidim would have a problem with such a practice.

 

[Moses613]

I just “accidentally” came across this and couldn’t resist posting it here as a great summary of the difference between the Christian and Jewish concepts of the afterlife.

And, to make matters worse, except for some professor in college, no Christian can read Tanach [the 24 books of the Jewish bible --ed.] in its original Hebrew. They are all slaves to the all-important Christian translator who happily leads them by the cross dangling on their necklace. As a result, it never occurred to any Christian that the Jewish Bible almost never mentions heaven or hell. It is mentioned. And if you search carefully, you will find those passages that briefly discuss the afterlife. As it turns out, the discussion of heaven and hell in the Jewish scriptures comes up passingly and indirectly. It is not the point of the teaching. It is never conveyed as a threat or an epic creed. In stark contrast, the authors of the New Testament routinely threaten their readers with eternal damnation and hellfire; and Christians seem to know exactly who is going there. Why the vast disparity between the Jewish Scriptures and the Christian Bible on this point? Christians never ask this question. Never.

As it turns out, we spend a lot more time dead than alive. Why then is there so little ink spent on this topic in Tanach? The answer is simple: of course there is a heaven and hell. Without Olam Haba and Gehenim, the World to Come and Hell, there could be no justice in the world.

Detailed information about heaven and hell, however, has nothing to do with how you are to conduct your life in this world, the only place you have free will. Tanach is committed only to conveying information that you need to live your life properly in this world. In other words, the details about the afterlife are unimportant (and incomprehensible), and God is not going to threaten you with something that is inaccessible. You can’t test it.

In stark contrast, when Hashem speaks to us in the Torah, He brings into view epic moments from the knowable past; events that the entire Jewish people witnessed. In turn, the people of Israel are commanded to be a “witness” to the world, a “light to the nations.” The Almighty therefore declares to us, “I am the God Who brought you out of Egypt; I am the God Who brought you to the Promised Land.” It is for this reason that the Torah calls upon us to “Remember” (Deut. 4-5, 7, 13, 15-16, 24). The Torah commands the Nation of Israel in the first person, “You shall remember, you shall remember!” No nation would have accepted such a detailed command to remember that which was seen and experienced had these events not actually occurred. The emphasis which is placed on remembering demonstrates that the memory of these events carved itself deeply in the consciousness of the nation. Furthermore, the nation of Israel is commanded to remember the events that they were witness to and personally experienced. Only when it becomes evident that the Torah was not written at a later date or dates, but at the time the events themselves occurred, is it conceivable that the entire nation would shoulder the responsibility to remember. This claim is testable─it is verifiable─and therefore it is a claim made only by the children of Israel. No other nation in history had the audacity or the ability to claim that God revealed Himself to their entire nation. On the other hand, no one can test the veracity of the well-worn claim that you are going to go to hell if you don’t believe.

As a disclaimer, when the author writes “Christians never ask this question” he is talking about the vast majority. Obviously people on the non-Catholic religions forum of CAF are exactly the type who would ask this question LOL.