Two moral dilemas: co-habitation..gay and straight

[robert_Ian_Will]

A friend like a sister…a non-Catholic, who was deserted and divorced…moves in with her boy friend. Can I still socialise with them and could I go to the civil marriage.

Another friend who is an Anglican minister ( though a former Catholic) has come out as gay and is living with his partner and an adopted child. Can I still be friends with them and visit them …or is this de facto recognition of sin?

 

[Exalt]

A friend like a sister…a non-Catholic, who was deserted and divorced…moves in with her boy friend. Can I still socialise with them and could I go to the civil marriage.

Another friend who is an Anglican minister ( though a former Catholic) has come out as gay and is living with his partner and an adopted child. Can I still be friends with them and visit them …or is this de facto recognition of sin?

I’m pretty sure Jesus talked about this once.

Oh, yeah, here it is:

Luke 6:31 “Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them.”

So, to answer all those questions: Be a friend, do what a friend would do, because that’s how you would like to be treated.

 

[Scottgun]

Be their friend, but look at it this way–you see your friend walking towards a cliff edge, completely oblivious to his danger. What would a real friend do?

 

[PaulinVA]

How about 2 Thessalonians 3?

13
But you, brothers, do not be remiss in doing good.
14
If anyone does not obey our word as expressed in this letter, take note of this person not to associate with him, that he may be put to shame.
15
Do not regard him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother.

It seems like the early Church believed in telling people they were doing wrong and leaving them on their own.

 

[chris_molter]

A friend like a sister…a non-Catholic, who was deserted and divorced…moves in with her boy friend. Can I still socialise with them and could I go to the civil marriage.

Yes on 1, no on 2. Just make sure if it comes up that you’re clear that you disagree with the cohabitation.

Another friend who is an Anglican minister ( though a former Catholic) has come out as gay and is living with his partner and an adopted child. Can I still be friends with them and visit them …or is this de facto recognition of sin?

Yes on 1, no on 2. If you stopped being friends with any of your friends who sin, you’d just have one friend left. Jesus.

Again, if it comes up, you can’t give the impression that you agree with their sinful lifestyle. If that creates an occasion of sin for you, then you may have to distance yourself for your own sake.

 

[masterjedi747]

Yes on 1, no on 2.

Uh… I think I definitely disagree. Yes to all of the above.

A friend like a sister…a non-Catholic, who was deserted and divorced…moves in with her boy friend. Can I still socialize with them and could I go to the civil marriage.

Yes, you can socialize, and yes, I believe you can attend the civil marriage if you wish.

The only thing that should stop you from attending the marriage would be if she (or her boyfriend) was Catholic, because then they would be obligated to be married in the Church, and any attempt to do so outside of the Church would be a sin that you could not support or participate in. But if they’re not Catholic, then that rule disappears, and the Church will still recognize the validity of their marriage.

Another friend who is an Anglican minister ( though a former Catholic) has come out as gay and is living with his partner and an adopted child. Can I still be friends with them and visit them …or is this de facto recognition of sin?

Yes, you can still be friends, and yes, I don’t see why in the world you couldn’t visit them (?)… just paying a friendly visit doesn’t count as giving your approval to their sin. Not to mention the whole* Jesus visiting with the sinners and tax collectors* bit.

Just make sure if it comes up that you’re clear that you disagree with the cohabitation.

Again, if it comes up, you can’t give the impression that you agree with their sinful lifestyle.

That is absolutely correct, and very important.

 

[masterjedi747]

In defense of my post above:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=167154

Catholics may attend all presumptively-valid marriages of Catholics, non-Catholics, and non-Christians.

For non-Catholics and non-Christians who are marrying other non-Catholics or non-Christians, a wedding can be considered presumptively valid if there are no known impediments to the marriage. The most common impediments that outsiders are likely to know about would be previous marriage, close blood relationship, or same-sex partners. If none of these impediments are known to exist, a prospective guest may presume that the wedding will be valid.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=64951

It is true that, objectively speaking, a person who is a Catholic is objectively bound by Catholic marital law. However, the Church reasonably understands that someone who has formally left the Church because of a defect in that person’s faith or understanding cannot be reasonably expected to follow Catholic marital law. Because marriages among non-Catholics are presumed valid (and sacramental if both parties are baptized), those marriages of former Catholics are also presumed to be valid/sacramental if the conditions for a valid/sacramental marriage among non-Catholics have otherwise been met. Lapsed Catholics, on the other hand, have not left the Church and so are expected to follow the ecclesial disciplines necessary to assure the validity/sacramentality of their marriages.

 

[1ke]

In defense of my post above:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=167154

Actually, this post does not defend your previous post, but rather the opposite. The quote states Catholics may attend presumptively-**valid **weddings of non-Catholics.

The OP stated that the woman was divorced. That would mean any civil marriage she attempts would be **invalid **based on an impediment of a prior bond.

 

[masterjedi747]

Actually, this post does not defend your previous post, but rather the opposite.

The OP stated that the woman was divorced.

You’re entirely correct.
I somehow completely missed that part of the sentence when I was reading it.
Mea culpa.

That would mean any civil marriage she attempts would be **invalid **based on an impediment of a prior bond.

I’m now a bit confused about this, actually… since she’s not Catholic, is she still required to get an annulment …if she even can get one? What can she do about rescinding her first marriage, if anything? Is a civil divorce enough, if it was only ever a civil marriage?

I mean, if she was a Catholic, this would be a piece of cake, but since she’s not… (and assuming that the rules for non-Catholics aren’t very well-defined, since Canon Law is generally only concerned with those within the Catholic Church) …would the Church simply look upon her second marriage as “presumptively valid” anyway?

 

[1ke]

I’m now a bit confused about this, actually… since she’s not Catholic, is she still required to get an annulment …if she even can get one? What can she do about rescinding her first marriage, if anything?

Yes. She would be required to do so. Objectively speaking she would be required to do so before any additional attempt at marriage. Being a non-Catholic she would (a) not likley know this and (b) not likely care. Additionally, the tribunals typically only accept cases of Catholics or those wishing to marry Catholics.

So, in matter of course, it is likely the only time a non-Catholic would do so is if they are going to marry a Catholic or become a Catholic.

Is a civil divorce enough, if it was only ever a civil marriage?

No.

…would the Church simply look upon her second marriage as “presumptively valid” anyway?

No.

 

[robert_Ian_Will]

Thank you so much…they no where I stand and we have a modus vivendi based on honesty. I still wpould not go to a future registry or Church marriage…because her first marriage as a Protestant could have been valid.

It is my understanding that marriage between two non catholic Christians outside the Catholic Church is valid.

My main concern is that I may be giving de facto recognition to the gay relationship and tha adoption.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Another friend who is an Anglican minister ( though a former Catholic) has come out as gay and is living with his partner and an adopted child. Can I still be friends with them and visit them …or is this de facto recognition of sin?

You must let your friend know without doubt that you consider his lifestyle “sinful.”

You can still be friends with this individual, but do not support any of his sins. Do not condone his behaviour. It is important that you do not compromise your beliefs when you’re around him.

It’s hard but it can be done. You just have to be charitable.

Personally, I don’t think I could be friends with this individual because I would have totally different opinions and beliefs. I find it suprising that you can still be friends given the fact that you have totally different views on life; views that are opposed to each other.