Two perspectves on the papal visit

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DustinsDad

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The Kingdom of God vs. the Civilization of Love
by John Vennari (Catholic Family News)

Christ Our Hope - A Look Back at Pope Benedict’s 2008 Missionary Journey to the US
by Michael Matt (Remnant Newspaper)

I was waiting for both of these traditional publications to say something about the papal visit. Vennari had his up for some time, and Michael Matt from The Remnant finally got his article up (yesterday I believe).

Nowthen, Vennari’s article articulated alot of what I was thinking - especially in regards to the UN visit and the interreligious meeting/ceremony. Matt’s article seems a bit more hopeful and positive - while not whitewashing the things that are of concern to traditional folks.

Comments on the articles anyone? (Ad hominem attacks on the authors or the publications in question are not necessary - just speak to the points brought out in the articles if you are going to post.)

Thanks,

DustinsDad
 
Loved the second commentary - very balanced. Best line in the whole piece?
The state reception hosted by President Bush at the White House was more traditional and certainly more edifying than the **putrid stew of liturgical novelty served up by Archbishop Wuerl and his stellar team of effeminate nincompoops and mediocrities. **
Hysterical.😉
 
From the first article:
Let us pray for Pope Benedict XVI. Let us also pray fervently that God will soon grant us a Pope who will resurrect the true teaching of the Kingdom of God vs. the kingdom of satan, and discard the counterfeit “Civilization of Love vs. Culture of Death” dichotomy. (emphasis added)
Since the only way to get a new pope is the death of the pope, is the author asking for prayers for Pope Benedict’s death?
 
WOW! That first article was a pretty disgraceful attack on Pope Benedict XVI and Vatican II. Those that attack vatican II are blinded from the truth or just don’t want to see it. I was THERE at Yankee Stadium. It was an experience that was so moving. The holy spirit filled the stadium. We saw the humility of this man who represents Christ.

The first article in particular is ridiculous. The article in itself was pretty uncharitable. Why would reaching out to other faiths be such a problem? If the writer of that article thinks that only Catholics can get into heaven he has another thing to learn. God created ALL people, a part of him is in everyone of us not just Catholics. There are many other faiths that will be in heaven other than Catholics. I can’t again help but see that word Pharasee cropping up again.
 
These articles make me cross (though Michael Matt’s article is less an offender.)

I haven’t the time, energy, or inclination to pick apart the substance of them, so I will confine myself to addressing the attitude of the authors.

I wish that both writers would read the Rule of this Pope’s (awesome) patron saint with close attention to all the passages that deal with obedience (of heart as well as action) and substituting “Pope” for “Abbot.”

In particular I would have both authors read Chapter 72…
 
If the writer of that article thinks that only Catholics can get into heaven he has another thing to learn. God created ALL people, a part of him is in everyone of us not just Catholics. There are many other faiths that will be in heaven other than Catholics.
In fact, Blessed Pius IX condemned the proposition you make:

“Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.” Quanto conficiamur, Aug. 10, 1863

Additionally, the concept of God being in everyone is a heresy.
 
In fact, Blessed Pius IX condemned the proposition you make:

“Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.” Quanto conficiamur, Aug. 10, 1863

Additionally, the concept of God being in everyone is a heresy.
I don’t have the time right now to get into answering your first part of the question, but I will later on. However,
I am very interested in which heresy you are referring to?
 
=DustinsDad;3649883]The Kingdom of God vs. the Civilization of Love
by John Vennari (Catholic Family News)

Christ Our Hope - A Look Back at Pope Benedict’s 2008 Missionary Journey to the US
by Michael Matt (Remnant Newspaper)

I was waiting for both of these traditional publications to say something about the papal visit. Vennari had his up for some time, and Michael Matt from The Remnant finally got his article up (yesterday I believe).
I watched the inter-religious meeting on TV. The Pope made a very short speech and then he accepted gifts from the members of various religions. When he received the Koran from a Moslem he simply thanked him and handed it to another priest.
He did have this to say in his speech.

MEETING WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER RELIGIONS
ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
“Rotunda” Hall of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center of Washington, D.C.
Thursday, 17 April 2008

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080417_other-religions_en.html
“The broader purpose of dialogue is to discover the truth. What is the origin and destiny of mankind? What are good and evil? What awaits us at the end of our earthly existence? Only by addressing these deeper questions can we build a solid basis for the peace and security of the human family, for “wherever and whenever men and women are enlightened by the splendor of truth, they naturally set out on the path of peace…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, Christianity proposes Jesus of Nazareth. He, we believe, is the eternal Logos who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is he whom we bring to the forum of interreligious dialogue. The ardent desire to follow in his footsteps spurs Christians to open their minds and hearts in dialogue”

After he received the gifts a choir sang a song about St Frances. There was no common prayer. The other religions were not allowed to pray. The Pope was clearly the center of attention, the way it should be.
Nowthen, Vennari’s article articulated alot of what I was thinking - especially in regards to the UN visit and the interreligious meeting/ceremony. Matt’s article seems a bit more hopeful and positive - while not whitewashing the things that are of concern to traditional folks.
I liked Matt’s article. I trying to be more postive these days.
 
Strikes me as the rancid verbal spit up of infantile minds. Wipe their puke coated little mouths and tuck both baby authors in for a nice nappy pie. Maybe they will wake up in a better mood. 😃 Ya, ad hominum, but then neither deserves any better.
 
Additionally, the concept of God being in everyone is a heresy.
Which heresy? Why would it be a heresy to say that God is in everyone? God created us so why would it be a heresy to believe that we have a part of our creator in us?:confused:
 
Additionally, the concept of God being in everyone is a heresy.
There are two ways God can be present in an individual. The first is by way of God granting the person existence, a created share in God who is Being and Life Itself. St. Paul makes use of this concept in Athens, when he quotes a pagan poem that is correct on this point: In Him we live and move and have our being. Without this presence, nothing could exist.

The second, more excellent way, is by way of indwelling. God grants this only to his friends; in OT times, the prophets possessed this; now, it is granted to those who who are Baptized and have not lost the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through mortal sin. To say that God is present in this way in everyone would be heresy, though I don’t believe anyone is saying this.
 
The Kingdom of God vs. the Civilization of Love said:
Granted, it is not easy to preach the Social Kingship of Christ. It is not easy to tell non-Catholics they can only save their souls by abandoning their present position and joining Christ’s one and only true Church. Yet how can a faithful Vicar of Christ do anything else but preach these truths, which flow not from changeable law, but from the very essence of God and of the Faith itself?

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 1Pet 3:15-16

Also from stmaria

MEETING WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER RELIGIONS
ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
“Rotunda” Hall of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center of Washington, D.C.
Thursday, 17 April 2008

vatican.va/holy_father/be…igions_en.html
“The broader** purpose of dialogue is to discover the truth**. What is the origin and destiny of mankind? What are good and evil? What awaits us at the end of our earthly existence? Only by addressing these deeper questions can we build a solid basis for the peace and security of the human family, for “wherever and whenever men and women are enlightened by the splendor of truth, they naturally set out on the path of peace…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, Christianity proposes Jesus of Nazareth. He, we believe, **is the eternal Logos **who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. **It is he whom we bring **to the forum of interreligious dialogue. The ardent desire to follow in his footsteps spurs Christians to open their minds and hearts in dialogue”

sounds like Benedict is following very well in Peter’s footsteps
 
the first article: what? now i can’t say i’m opposed to the culture of death because it contradicts traditional catholic understandings? that seems pretty arbitrary. i thought the concept of “culture of death” was created by John Paul II as a way of explaining to the wider world what we as catholics stand against.

the second article: i know our future aint exactly rosy, but that is too much cynicism for my system to absorb in one sitting. i would like to send the author a bouquet of flowers to cheer him up.
 
I watched the inter-religious meeting on TV. …He did have this to say in his speech.
“The broader purpose of dialogue is to discover the truth. What is the origin and destiny of mankind? What are good and evil? What awaits us at the end of our earthly existence? Only by addressing these deeper questions can we build a solid basis for the peace and security of the human family, for “wherever and whenever men and women are enlightened by the splendor of truth, they naturally set out on the path of peace…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, Christianity proposes Jesus of Nazareth. He, we believe, is the eternal Logos who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is he whom we bring to the forum of interreligious dialogue. The ardent desire to follow in his footsteps spurs Christians to open their minds and hearts in dialogue”
The part that troubles me with the speech was that it sounds so neutral. It’s as if the One True Church is going to sit down as equals with all the varying world (false) religions and uncover some hidden truth, and the Christian perspective is just gonna be thrown onto the table for consideration. Sort of like, “Well* for us* truth is…” That just doesn’t sound like the language of the Church. It doesn’t sound confident. It doesn’t sound convinced.

Don’t take me wrong here - the mere fact that the Holy Father stated “The broader purpose of dialogue is to discover the truth” is a good step forward to what alot of what we’ve seen in the past. But it gives the impression that the Catholic Church also wants to “discover” truth, rather than share and proclaim the Truth already revealed.
After he received the gifts a choir sang a song about St Frances. There was no common prayer. The other religions were not allowed to pray. The Pope was clearly the center of attention, the way it should be.
Thank goodness! Another step forward.

I must say though, it was primarily the gift giving ceremony that set me off on the wrong foot here. The visual of the Vicar of Christ graciously accepting the symbols of false religions that explicitly reject Him and lead many souls into Hell by this very rejection, well that all made me feel like I got hit in the stomach*.*

I understand the motivations behind it - but I think in the zeal not to offend and find “common ground”, somewhere, someone is forgetting the words of Pope Pius XI:
2. A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little, turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.
(Mortalium Animos, 2)
I liked Matt’s article. I trying to be more postive these days.
Me too.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 1Pet 3:15-16

Also from stmaria

MEETING WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER RELIGIONS
ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
“Rotunda” Hall of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center of Washington, D.C.
Thursday, 17 April 2008

vatican.va/holy_father/be…igions_en.html
“The broader** purpose of dialogue is to discover the truth**. What is the origin and destiny of mankind? What are good and evil? What awaits us at the end of our earthly existence? Only by addressing these deeper questions can we build a solid basis for the peace and security of the human family, for “wherever and whenever men and women are enlightened by the splendor of truth, they naturally set out on the path of peace…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, Christianity proposes Jesus of Nazareth. He, we believe, **is the eternal Logos **who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. **It is he whom we bring **to the forum of interreligious dialogue. The ardent desire to follow in his footsteps spurs Christians to open their minds and hearts in dialogue”

sounds like Benedict is following very well in Peter’s footsteps
Sounds like he is inviting other others to consider He whom we profess as Lord and God in hopes that they will be convinced. If he were to beat them over the head, telling them what vile heretics they are and how they are all going to hell, I doubt anyone would listen. Just my two cents.
 
…If he were to beat them over the head, telling them what vile heretics they are and how they are all going to hell, I doubt anyone would listen. Just my two cents.
Is this what you see the Church as having done for all those centuries prior to the “modern approach” to ecumenism and interreligious dialogue?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
%between%
Comments on the articles anyone? (Ad hominem attacks on the authors or the publications in question are not necessary - just speak to the points brought out in the articles if you are going to post.)
Yet this sort of crud is acceptable in the articles?

As shown in the second post of this thread.
Code:
  	 				The state reception hosted by President Bush at the White House was more traditional and certainly more edifying than the **putrid stew of liturgical novelty served up by Archbishop Wuerl and his stellar team of effeminate nincompoops and mediocrities.**
 
Is this what you see the Church as having done for all those centuries prior to the “modern approach” to ecumenism and interreligious dialogue?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
for me, it is not so much that, but what would you have His Holiness do, body slam Nancy Pelosi, drop kick Giuliani and set fire to the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Christ taught always. On rare occasion, and only with leaders of His own religion, did He “attack”. I believe our last two popes have done an excellent job of teaching the faithful, Catholic and protestant alike, as well as the secular world, just as Jesus brought the message of hope to the woman at the well and her people. Benedict XVI and his predecessor of fond memory, John Paul II, have admonished those in the hierarchy of the Church and every pope moving forward will do the same. We may or may not know about it is all.
 
=DustinsDad;365650

I must say though, it was primarily the gift giving ceremony that set me off on the wrong foot here. The visual of the Vicar of Christ graciously accepting the symbols of false religions that explicitly reject Him and lead many souls into Hell by this very rejection, well that all made me feel like I got hit in the stomach*.*
Here is my take on the gift giving. All the representatives of these false religions approached him and gave him gifts .Kind of like when Christ was born and gifts were laid at His feet.
He didn’t make the mistake of kissing the Quran. He accepted it like he would any other book. He did not allow them to pray which would have been putting them on the same level as the Truth.
Hopefully they were in awe of him. Will any of them convert.? Probably not.
But he did send them a message.
," Christianity proposes Jesus of Nazareth. He, we believe, is the eternal Logos** who became flesh **in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. **It is he whom we bring **to the forum of interreligious dialogue"
 
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