Two priest of a diocese in Italy turn totally tradition is their own churches. Glorious!

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No. Those are lies. No one is now, or ever has been harassed about the “Extraordinary Form”. Everybody knows that everybody has always said that it was permitted. It is all the same. Those Italian priests need to appreicate the beauty of biritualism.
 
Planty_Pall said:
No. Those are lies. No one is now, or ever has been harassed about the “Extraordinary Form”. Everybody knows that everybody has always said that it was permitted. It is all the same. Those Italian priests need to appreicate the beauty of biritualism.
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Are you serious? NO ONE has ever been harassed about celebrating the Extraordinary Form? That’s a crazy statement.
 
YoungTradCath said:
Are you serious? NO ONE has ever been harassed about celebrating the Extraordinary Form? That’s a crazy statement.
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Before the past coupe of years it could only be said with permission, but it has always been recognized as a valid form of the mass. Those who might be said to be harassed is SSPX, but their disobediance goes futher than just not celebrating the OF.
 
I don’t know exactly how Summorum Pontificum applies to the case of a priest wanting to use the Extraordinary Form exclusively, but I don’t like the way the article seemed to make white martyrs out of those priests who before it disobeyed their bishops regarding the liturgy. Surely obedience to legitimate ecclesial authority takes precedence over which approved liturgical form one prefers.
 
Planty_Pall said:
No. Those are lies. No one is now, or ever has been harassed about the “Extraordinary Form”. Everybody knows that everybody has always said that it was permitted. It is all the same. Those Italian priests need to appreicate the beauty of biritualism.
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I think Planty Pall is joking 😉
 
YoungTradCath said:
Are you serious? NO ONE has ever been harassed about celebrating the Extraordinary Form? That’s a crazy statement.
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Actually no, I wasn’t serious. I apologize. I spoke out of some recent frustration. If one observes who, in the 70’s and 80’s and 90’s were doing the harassing, and what figures among Catholics taught what has finally been declared by Pope Benedict, it can be interpreted as proselytizing for a particular group and your post is removed.

The popes waited 38 years after the promulgation of Pope Paul’s Mass to make it clear that The Traditional Mass was never really suppressed. For that whole period, and now four years after, many of the world’s bishops are still having difficulty breaking their lifetime habit of behaving like the Traditional Mass is suppressed. One is hard-pressed not to wonder what suspensions of good priests and excommunications first declared, then lifted, might have been avoided if three popes hadn’t died before this knowledge was made authoritatively known.
 
FAB said:
Before the past coupe of years it could only be said with permission, but it has always been recognized as a valid form of the mass.
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That and ** the proverbial nickel would get you a cup of coffee!😃
 
Planty_Pall said:
Actually no, I wasn’t serious. I apologize. I spoke out of some recent frustration. If one observes who, in the 70’s and 80’s and 90’s were doing the harassing, and what figures among Catholics taught what has finally been declared by Pope Benedict, it can be interpreted as proselytizing for a particular group and your post is removed.

The popes waited 38 years after the promulgation of Pope Paul’s Mass to make it clear that The Traditional Mass was never really suppressed. For that whole period, and now four years after, many of the world’s bishops are still having difficulty breaking their lifetime habit of behaving like the Traditional Mass is suppressed. One is hard-pressed not to wonder what suspensions of good priests and excommunications first declared, then lifted, might have been avoided if three popes hadn’t died before this knowledge was made authoritatively known.
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Let’s clarify something here. No one has been excommunicated for celebrating the Tridentine form. Those who have incurred excommunications did so for disobedience and breaking with the Primacy of Peter or for disobeying their religious superiors. Everyone knows that if you break with the Primacy of Peter or if you’re a religious and you disobey your superior, you will incurr excommunication. Even some suspensions were given for disobedience. I know priests who are religious and were told by their superiors that they could not celebrate the EF in public and they proceded to to so. Their superiors suspended them. But they were suspended for disobeying. Those who continued to celebrate it, even after the superior suspended them were dismissed and excommunicated.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I can show you photographic documented PROOF from the Diocese of Fresno California, where one of the Former Bishops, on the Diocese own stationary, commanded the priest of a particular parish to basically hunt down the Latin Mass attendees, and inform them that if they continue to attend, they would be ecommunicate.

AS for the Latin mass never being CENSORED, HA! That is a lie. IN another document, of which I have a Xeroxed Copy, it indicates that the Conference of Catholic Bishops informed THIS particular Bishop that the "sacred Congregation has reaffirmed that it is no longer permitted to use the missal of Pius V.

Have a look:

View attachment 11632

View attachment 11633

They are three years apart, from 1973 and 1976.

This was the policy of the united states Bishops: Hunt, and silence.

The NCCB at the time said the Mass of Pius V was no longer permitted “According to Rome.”

Never Forbidden?!!?!?

Somebody’s been lying to us…

You wonder why we have a martyr complex?
 
Fide_Roma said:
I can show you photographic documented PROOF from the Diocese of Fresno California, where one of the Former Bishops, on the Diocese own stationary, commanded the priest of a particular parish to basically hunt down the Latin Mass attendees, and inform them that if they continue to attend, they would be ecommunicate.

AS for the Latin mass never being CENSORED, HA! That is a lie. IN another document, of which I have a Xeroxed Copy, it indicates that the Conference of Catholic Bishops informed THIS particular Bishop that the "sacred Congregation has reaffirmed that it is no longer permitted to use the missal of Pius V.
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Wow, a Xeroxed Copy, no less.

"I have in my possession the names of 57 bishops . . . "

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/highlights/archives/mccarthy-20071.jpg
 
JReducation said:
… No one has been excommunicated for celebrating the Tridentine form. Those who have incurred excommunications did so for disobedience and breaking with the Primacy of Peter or for disobeying their religious superiors. …

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Uh, it seems to me that if a bishop were to suspend or excommunicate for disobedience to an illicit order, any such suspension/excommunication would itself be illicit.
The fact that any priest has had the right to celebrate the Roman Missal in Latin for more than 400 years seem to override the illicit order of any local bishop.
 
Ah, yes, I do believe Mark’s comment was a sarcastic put down, He is famous for that!😦
 
roadsend said:
Uh, it seems to me that if a bishop were to suspend or excommunicate for disobedience to an illicit order, any such suspension/excommunication would itself be illicit.
The fact that any priest has had the right to celebrate the Roman Missal in Latin for more than 400 years seem to override the illicit order of any local bishop.
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Actually no. That’s not the way it works. If you are a religious, you vow obedience to your superior and to all legitimate Church authority, even if they are mistaken. You must obey unless you are commanded to sin. A command not to celebrate the Tridentine form is not a command to sin. You have to prove that what the superior ordered is identified as a real sin by the Church. Otherwise, you will be suspended and can be excommunicated for disobedience, if you push the envelop.

If you are a secular priest, you make a promise of obedience to the local bishop. The promise is not as comprehensive as a vow of obedience. The vow includes anything that the superior wants to command, even the color of your toothbrush. The promise applies only to pastoral matters and diocesan policies. Again, unless the policy is commanding you to sin, you have to obey until you are given permission to the contrary by a higher ranking office, such as the Vatican. You must obey and appeal. If the bishop is wrong, the ruling must come from above.

The fact as you quote it above is not quite right. All priests may celebrate the mass according to the missal of 1962, IN PRIVATE. It’s not the mass for 400 years.

**ONLY SECULAR PRIESTS can celebrate it in public without permission. ** Priests who belong to religious communities must have the permission of their Major Superior. Even the local superior cannot grant permission to celebrate it in public.

Even with SP, you must obey a superior who is mistaken and appeal your case. We are still under penalty if we disobey, even when the authority is mistaken. The laws that govern the vows and promises of obedience do not allow us to disobey. We can present a case to a higher authority and argue that the bishop or superior is abusing his authority. Until it is proven, the Church requires that we comply. If the superior suspends you and your go forward with your decision, you can be excommunicated, not for celebrating the mass, but for disobedience.

You see, a person in vows or under the promise of obedience is allowed to ask only one question, “Am I being asked to sin?” If not, then I have to obey and use due process to have the order lifted.

The suspensions are licit, even when the reason for suspending is mistaken. They are licit because the person in authority has the right to command obedience. You’re looking at the issue. The Church does not look at the subject of the disagreement. When the Church looks at clergy and religious, she looks to see whether we are submissive or not. She does not care whether we’re talking about toothpaste or the mass. If you are not submissive, you can be called on the carpet or you may be lucky and have a very gentle bishop or superior who will let it slide. That’s not always a good thing. Too much sliding can lead to chaos.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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