Two problems: forgiveness and atonement

[unshinbop]

Problem # 1: forgiveness
If Jesus forgave sin before he died, how can his death be necessary for forgiveness? This is yet another theological conundrum that implies to me that Jesus’ death truly defeated his mission, and the notion that he atoned for sin in such death is nothing more than later theological embellishment of what was otherwise a typical political criminal’s death.

Saying “by death he defeated death”, is like saying “by amputation he defeated amputation”. It’s completely illogical. There is no possible analogy to show that you can defeat a dangerous circumstance or condition by suffering the full extent of its possible harm!

Someone will say that Jesus didn’t forgive sins by sheer divine fiat, but only because he knew he’d later be atoning for them. This, of course, is nowhere expressed or implied in the context of the “I-forgive-you” passages of the gospels, and is no more likely correct than the speculation of theologians that Moses knew his system of animal sacrifice atonement would one day cease due to a great human sacrifice.

Problem # 2: atonement inconsistent with God’s desires

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and meal offering Thou hast not desired;

Psalm 51:16
For Thou dost not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; Thou art not pleased with burnt offering.

How can God desire for Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice, if He stopped desiring sacrifice many centuries earlier, back in the days when the Psalms were being composed?

1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.

If obedience is better than sacrifice, then the obedience of Christians is better than the sacrifice of Jesus. This is a particularly powerful argument because Samuel was saying obedience is better than the animal-sacrificial system of Moses, even though Jesus is supposed to have “fulfilled” these. Why would Jesus need to fulfill the animal sacrifice system, if in fact God thinks your obedience is better than sacrifice? If God would rather that Samuel obey than sacrifice, then God would be fully pleased with your obedience and thus likewise not see any reason for sacrifice.

Someone may say this principle is true, but alas, we sinners cannot perfectly keep the law, hence, sacrifice is necessary. But the gospel does not agree with the view that says sinners cannot keep the whole law:

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Moses also disagrees with the idea that sinners cannot keep the entire law:

Deuteronomy 30:10-14
10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

So you cannot justify the need for Jesus’ atoning death on the basis that we needed somebody to perfectly obey FOR us.

Isaiah is rather explicit that not only 1) God no longer cares for sacrifices, but 2) God will blot out Israel’s sins with nothing more than their obedience to his commands.

Isaiah 1:11-19 11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, And the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats. 12 "When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts? 13 "Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. 14 "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them. 15 "So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. 16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless; Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. 18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19 "If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;

God blotted out David’s sin by sheer fiat, not blood whatsoever:

2 Samuel 12:13
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.

If Jesus never contradicted the OT, then he could never have taught, as he allegedly did, that God has changed his mind yet again, and has returned to his original position that sacrifice is better than obedience. Jesus gives the criteria for salvation in Matthew 19:17 and Matthew 25, his atonement is not even implied. Once again, making Jesus’ death into atonement appears to be a purely Pauline fiction.

 

[unshinbop]

P.S.

The most definitive rebuttal to Paul’s atonement-gospel is the words of the resurrected Jesus, who said his disciples were to teach the world to obey “all” that Jesus had previously taught the disciples:

Matthew 28:19-20
19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Never once does Jesus ever teach his disciples that it is necessary for salvation to believe that he died for the sins of the world. Apparently then, one can evangelize others sufficiently without so much as mentioning the atonement, because what you believe about the atonement is utterly irrelevent to gaining eternal life. This is in stark contrast to Paul who said the Cross was central to his gospel.

 

[Deconi]

P.S.

The most definitive rebuttal to Paul’s atonement-gospel is the words of the resurrected Jesus, who said his disciples were to teach the world to obey “all” that Jesus had previously taught the disciples:

Never once does Jesus ever teach his disciples that it is necessary for salvation to believe that he died for the sins of the world. Apparently then, one can evangelize others sufficiently without so much as mentioning the atonement, because what you believe about the atonement is utterly irrelevent to gaining eternal life. This is in stark contrast to Paul who said the Cross was central to his gospel.

The ’all’ includes that which is not written down! Remember John said that not all He said and did could be written down.

Paul himself alluded to the fact the followers will be ‘fed’ with milk as that to infants…for the acceptance of the teachings of the things of God require ‘maturity’ in mind and spirit.

As for the atonement, you’d have to first try and understand what is revealed of God before attempting to even grasp the gravity of the level of the sacrifice. That which was taught to Moses regarding animal sacrifices would have no rational necessity if it were not pointing to The Cross!

The alternative would be to think that the bigger the sin, the bigger the animal required or multiple animals to be slaughtered.