Two Questions about "if we die in mortal sin we go to hell"

[mosher]

Agnus_Dei:

Also I know that if you are in the state of mortal sin you go to hell if you die unrepentant
but what if you never have a chance to repent
thats the thing…
and i also understand that people have to 'want" to commit a mortal sin in order for it to be well…mortal
but it still seems to take a lil bit to much off calvary and unto ourselves.

I think that perhaps what you don’t have a grasp of at the moment is the actual gravity of mortal sin. Again and again you go back doing good and then committing one mortal sin and then going to hell. This just means that you don’t yet realize the seriousness of mortal sin - perhaps that is the question you should pray about.

 

[mozart-250]

Umm…I was going to let this go because I addressed this in another thread…but…

I have the same issues as Mr Agnus Dei here.

Now maybe my concerns don’t count because I am not Catholic but anyway I decided to research this from the Catholic sources.

So I went to Catholic Answers and it really seems to me that the answer I have hear, particularly from the church fathers is much more palatable than I have hear:

(1) When the article addresses what is heresy on this issue, it addresses what is commonly referred to as “eternal security”. I concur with Catholic Answers that this doctrine is wrong.

(2) The article states

But during the persecutions some baptized people denied Christ, and because Christ taught that “whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10:33), the Church Fathers recognized that it was possible to lose the grace of salvation after baptism

.

Here it is addressing denying Christ. I concur with Catholic Answers on this

The same article mentioned us Wesleyan types as positives. We do not hold that spiritual death is an immediate result of mortal sin. Instead we see this is a process where sin leads to death (James 1: 12-16).

Catholic Answers quotes the Church Fathers and I see no quotes by the church fathers that support this interpretation of mortal sin. Some quotes indicate the other.

Next I went to The catechism

I figure if I am going to research what the Catholic Church believes I might as well read the source documents instead of taking someones word for it. There I found this quote:

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

However with this text, it is interesting what it does not say. I see no mention of time in this text. I can not assume from this text an specific time when mortality results from mortal sin. I see no reason to assume from this text that death is an immediate result of mortal sin, particularly in the hypothetical described above. This hypothetical is not addressed by the Catechism and there is no need for me to read something into it that is not there.

I’m sorry but I just don’t see my name as being written in the Lambs book of life; then erased; then written again; then erased; then written again… every time I sin.

 

[Archbishop]

I am speaking as an Anglo-Catholic on this subject. Jesus said that all the Father had given to him will come to him. He also said that of all the Father had given to him he would lose NONE.

When Jesus Christ died on the cross he paid the sin penalty for all of our sins, even those we have not yet committed. In fact, none of us alive now had committed any sins, yet Jesus paid the price and redeemed us with his most precious blood.

I would hate to live my Christian life knowing that at any minute or second, I might commit a sin, and not have time to repent of it, and be condemned to hell for all eternity, in spite of the trust and faith that I had placed in the death of Christ on Calvary for my salvation, and the graces I had received from the Sacraments of Holy Mother Church throughout my life.

The New Testament speaks very clearly to this issue of being caught ashamed by the Lord. This is also the reason for Purgatory, to cleanse our soul from all impurity and the effects of remaining and indwelling sin so that we might be fit for Heaven and the Beatific Vision.

At the moment of our death we are in the hands of a merciful and just God who is slow to anger and who abounds in lovingkindness. To those who have rejected his Son there will be swift judgment. But let us not be hasty to condemn to hell those who have named the Name of Christ but who in a moment of weakness have slipped. God’s grace and mercy exceeds my sinfulness, even at the last second of my earthly existence.

As I said, this is from an Anglican point of view.

Abp +Mark

 

[DeFide]

mozart-250:

I’m sorry but I just don’t see my name as being written in the Lambs book of life; then erased; then written again; then erased; then written again… every time I sin.

God knows how things will turn out, but you can be in rebellion with God, in friendship with God, and in rebellion again. You can choose your will over His, and He will let you. Free will is really free. It’s what allows us to really love.

2 Peter 2:20ff

**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. ****21 **For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down 11 to them. **22 12 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.” **

---

I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s worth repeating. You have to trust that God knows your heart and that He is perfectly just. God will take you from this world at a time of His choosing. We have no control over how long we have to amend our ways. Focus on accepting His graces at every opportunity, and focus on accepting His will, not your own.

We have a temptation to condemn God’s plan and his judgment, as if we know better. We might well ask why God doesn’t allow us 1000 years to amend our pitiful ways (or to show our self-willed streak). Remember the folks that grumbled at the prospect of late-coming laborers being paid according to the Master’s generosity? It seemed SO unfair to them:

Matthew 20
1 1 “The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 Going out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 2 and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.’ 5 So they went off. (And) he went out again around noon, and around three o’clock, and did likewise. 6 Going out about five o’clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’ 8 3 When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ 9 When those who had started about five o’clock came, each received the usual daily wage. 10 So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’ 13 He said to one of them in reply, ‘My friend, I am not cheating you. 4 Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? 14 5 Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? 15 (Or) am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ 16 6 Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

We must accept salvation on God’s terms, not ours.

 

[Archbishop]

mozart-250:

I’m sorry but I just don’t see my name as being written in the Lambs book of life; then erased; then written again; then erased; then written again… every time I sin.

Kind of makes the Christian life sound like the little child pulling the petals off the daisy one by one saying, “He loves me. He loves me not. He loves me. He loves me not. etc.” You never know how it is going to end up.

The idea is to persevere in the faith. As St. Peter writes, “Make your calling and election sure.” Place your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. “Jesus I trust in You.” We trust in Divine Mercy.

The person who commits a mortal sin and is unrepentant, has turned his or her back upon Christ and the Cross. There has been a conscious decision not to live God’s way and to stay in that state of rebellion.

The situation given by the OP is somewhat different in that there was no time for repentance or a conscious decision to stay in the unrepentant state and to turn one’s back upon God and the Cross. This is where a trust in God’s mercy is of the utmost importance.

Again, from an Anglican.

Abp +Mark

 

[mozart-250]

For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

**21 **For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down 11 to them. **22 12 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.” **

---

Hmm…this scripture sort illustrates my point…because it does have a time dimension to it. So, when is the last condition worse than the first:

Well:

• Once you are entangled and overcome by them
• Once they have turned back from the holy commandment handed down.
• Once you have returned to your own vomit and mire

Reads to me like the “backslidden condition” (from the classic Methodist point of view to all you Anglicans out there)

 

[DeFide]

mozart-250:

Hmm…this scripture sort illustrates my point…because it does have a time dimension to it. So, when is the last condition worse than the first:

Well:

• Once you are entangled and overcome by them
• Once they have turned back from the holy commandment handed down.
• Once you have returned to your own vomit and mire

Reads to me like the “backslidden condition” (from the classic Methodist point of view to all you Anglicans out there)

I’m trying to see how the backsliding scripture reference illustrates your point. Can you explain it a different way?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So far I agree with what the Anglican is saying (dont take calling you by “anglican” as offensive im just to lazy to go and find out your display name just as i am to lazy to go back and correct my spelling of offensive) anyway if that is what the anglican church teaches that sounds much more New Testament than the answers im getting from my fellow Catholics. Why is it that when I find everything come clear about the Catholic Church, i read something about dying in mortal sin as instant damnation (wether or not you have time to confess) and then begin to doubt the RCC all over again. Sad…If only I had the Pope’s email
I think hed be able to define what the Church really believes (well obviously) and then I’d know the exact answer to my question.

P.S how many of you actually went back to check if i spelled offensive right? Cause I did…just a little easter egg for all of you

 

[Agnus_Dei]

DeFide:

God knows how things will turn out, but you can be in rebellion with God, in friendship with God, and in rebellion again. You can choose your will over His, and He will let you. Free will is really free. It’s what allows us to really love.

2 Peter 2:20ff

**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. ****21 **For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down 11 to them. **22 12 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.” **

---

I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s worth repeating. You have to trust that God knows your heart and that He is perfectly just. God will take you from this world at a time of His choosing. We have no control over how long we have to amend our ways. Focus on accepting His graces at every opportunity, and focus on accepting His will, not your own.

We have a temptation to condemn God’s plan and his judgment, as if we know better. We might well ask why God doesn’t allow us 1000 years to amend our pitiful ways (or to show our self-willed streak). Remember the folks that grumbled at the prospect of late-coming laborers being paid according to the Master’s generosity? It seemed SO unfair to them:

Matthew 20
1 1 “The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 Going out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 2 and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.’ 5 So they went off. (And) he went out again around noon, and around three o’clock, and did likewise. 6 Going out about five o’clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’ 8 3 When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ 9 When those who had started about five o’clock came, each received the usual daily wage. 10 So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’ 13 He said to one of them in reply, ‘My friend, I am not cheating you. 4 Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? 14 5 Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? 15 (Or) am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ 16 6 Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

We must accept salvation on God’s terms, not ours.

Ive read the entire New testament…and God’s terms are spelt out quite simply
“I sent my son to die so you may live”
I dont see how ‘god’s terms’ answers my death before a chance to even feel guilty scenario…

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Archbishop:

Kind of makes the Christian life sound like the little child pulling the petals off the daisy one by one saying, “He loves me. He loves me not. He loves me. He loves me not. etc.” You never know how it is going to end up.Abp +Mark

God loves us, of that we are sure. He is also Just. I happen to believe that we all commit more than enough sins to warrant hell - albeit unknowingly (another reason for purgatory) that knowingly and willfully commiting a Mortal sin and expecting God to look the other way would be presumtuous of me - imposing on the one I profess to Love.

Archbishop:

The idea is to persevere in the faith. As St. Peter writes, “Make your calling and election sure.” Place your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. “Jesus I trust in You.” We trust in Divine Mercy.Abp +Mark

Yes, we do - making your calling and election sure, to me, is another way of echoing St. Paul: “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”, because it is NOT doing our will that gets us into heaven, it is from doing His, and even that is a gift from God.

Archbishop:

The person who commits a mortal sin and is unrepentant, has turned his or her back upon Christ and the Cross. There has been a conscious decision not to live God’s way and to stay in that state of rebellion.Abp +Mark

Exactly, and since we do not choose the time of our death - God does, and since God knows everything about us, including the state of our hearts…

Archbishop:

The situation given by the OP is somewhat different in that there was no time for repentance or a conscious decision to stay in the unrepentant state and to turn one’s back upon God and the Cross. This is where a trust in God’s mercy is of the utmost importance.Abp +Mark

Yet, there was, as has been repeatedly stated, a conscious decision to leave the repentant state of grace. THAT is the point. The scenario is for one who is solid in the faith and practices, not a person new to the faith, unknowing, (which would raise questions as to whether Mortal sin was actually commited with full knowledge in the first place) but rather someone with (presumably) a formed conscience, fully aware, and deliberately turning their back on God for personal gratification in an area God has deemed a VERY grave matter - sexual impurity:

1COR 6:9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
1COR 6:10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
1COR 6:11 And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God.
1COR 6:12 All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1COR 6:13 Meat for the belly, and the belly for the meats; but God shall destroy both it and them: but the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

and again:

MT 5:28 But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Yet - we are to expect that God will look the other way with willfully commited mortal sin?

Archbishop:

Again, from an Anglican.

Abp +Mark

again, from a Catholic

Peace

John

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Agnus_Dei:

Ive read the entire New testament…and God’s terms are spelt out quite simply
"I sent my son to die so you may live"
I dont see how ‘god’s terms’ answers my death before a chance to even feel guilty scenario…

Therefore be obediant, and you may live.

Peace

John

 

[mosher]

Agnus_Dei:

So far I agree with what the Anglican is saying (dont take calling you by “anglican” as offensive im just to lazy to go and find out your display name just as i am to lazy to go back and correct my spelling of offensive) anyway if that is what the anglican church teaches that sounds much more New Testament than the answers im getting from my fellow Catholics. Why is it that when I find everything come clear about the Catholic Church, i read something about dying in mortal sin as instant damnation (wether or not you have time to confess) and then begin to doubt the RCC all over again. Sad…If only I had the Pope’s email
I think hed be able to define what the Church really believes (well obviously) and then I’d know the exact answer to my question.

P.S how many of you actually went back to check if i spelled offensive right? Cause I did…just a little easter egg for all of you

What the church really believes is easy. It was solemnly affirmed in council that a person who dies with Mortal Sin or Original Sin on their conscious is excluded from the beatific vision of God - less some very speicific cases with Original Sin. This is a de Fide dogma. Here are a few supporting doctrines:

Internal supetrnatural grace is absolutely necessary for the begining of faith and of salvation - de fide

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification - de fide

God gives all the just sufficient grace for the observation of the Divine Commandments - de fide

Sanctifying grace makes the just man a child of God and gives him claim to the inheritance of Heaven - De Fide

The grace by which we are justified may be lost, and is lost by every grievous sin - de fide

I think that with those there is sufficient grounds to conclude what is the mind of the Church. I can explain any of these in greater detail if necessary but these are things that must be believed as Catholics hence the “de fide” at the end of each.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I just read these threads…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103439
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=106180

and i now am depressed beyond belief
if this is true
than i feel I have lost all respect for God…
but i sincerely hope that it is not true
A man who has been born again through Baptism, recieved Communion, faithful to Jesus all of his life, then misses mass and gets hit by a car on the way to whever he was going…is damned?
I thought God was the opposite of this! I thought God was not the judgemental deity of Islam and the Old Testament, I thought God sent his Son, the flesh and bones of the Virgin Mary, God as True Man to DIE for us.
How could the eternal, unimaginable mystery of God dying on the Cross, possibly be undone by one mortal sin!
How!?
I hate the very idea…
I grew up a Protestant all my life…hating the idea of Sola Fide
I knew that faith alone without works is dead
at first i was shaky about catholchism
I felt God reach out to me with his hand
i felt a vocation, a true one
not to the priesthood but to Holy Mother Church
I felt God take me by the hand and guide me to His Church, His Liturgy, His Mother, His beloved Saints, all of this.
I was ready to jump into Catholchism when my final question on Papal Authority was answered…and now this?
Add all the fancy words you like…but the message your giving me is that a lifetime of faith, a truly faithful soul, a baptized being
is all worthless
if somone masturbates and then gets a heart attack.
blasphemy…
thats all i can think of…
Gods word says that both Fresh Water and Salt Water cannot flow from the same spring…
This makes me question everything it took YEARS to accept (about Catholchism)
I feel like everything is collapsing now
I mean…Salvation is the most important part of religion IMO…because it allows us to spend eternity with God
If God will deny me my salvation because I skipped Mass with full consent on the last day of my life
thta is NOT the God I read about in the Bible
that is NOT the God the Early Church fathers wrote about
that is NOT the God even John Paul the II speaks about
a Deity of Love, A deity of mercy…
but this…this is a God of Terror, Judgement, Punishment, and Obession with Laws, Laws, Laws
I feel like crying and killing myself
after all…better get it done now
than die in mortal sin later
this is horrible…
Why would God do this? Why would God send evangelists to my door and plant the seed of the Spirit…putting my soul in jepordy!
Why couldnt he just NOT shared the Gospel with me
and let me die without knowing him
then…id die in ignorance and be SAVED
rather than in constant fear of mortally sinning and getting struck by lightining
It seems to me that Ignorance now can save more than all 7 sacraments put together
and if you tell me otherwise…you contradict yourself
because sinning in ignorance does not damn you
but sinning in consent not only damns you…but nullifies all of the prior sacraments (baptism, eucharist) until your next confession.
I hate this so much!
I wish God would explain this to me!
I feel forsaken and betrayed…somone help.

 

[mozart-250]

DeFide:

I’m trying to see how the backsliding scripture reference illustrates your point. Can you explain it a different way?

Sure…but to back up…

The point of agreement between Catholics and Classic Methodists is that it is possible salvation can be forfeited if the believer does not “continue in the faith” and moves “away from the hope of the gospel” Col: 1:23. I am trying to determine whether there is a fundamental disagreement between the Catholic position on when this occurs and the Classic Methodist position.

To do this, I have to reference the documents Catholics consider as infallible and separate that from the well-meaning opinions of Catholics. This is a showstopper issue for me as far as possibly becoming Catholic now or any time in the future. If I held the position that my eternal destiny before God is like a light bulb, on one minute and off the other minute; I would certainly sink into the despondency that Agnus_Dei exhibits in his last post.

In the Classic Methodist position, the forfeiture does not occur immediately after a sin (mortal or otherwise) is committed. Instead there is a process described in James 1:12-16. We often term the end result of this process backsliding. This I can live with and makes perfect sense from the way God’s word reads to me.

Concerning 2 Peter 2:20-21 the text has the phrases:

• “again become entangled and overcome by them”
• "turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
• “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.”

This really reads to me as when a believer returns to the state they were in prior to conversion. This is consistent with other Scriptures in the same vein that Calvinists have problems with and is consistent with Classic Methodism.

 

[Archbishop]

PraRFLEsEkHm:

…knowingly and willfully commiting a Mortal sin and expecting God to look the other way would be presumtuous of me - imposing on the one I profess to Love.

Yet - we are to expect that God will look the other way with willfully commited mortal sin?

John

John: I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I did not mean to imply that God ever just looks the other way at our sins. In His holiness He can never do that. His just nature would never permit him to do so. But, a loving Father has mercy on his children even when justice may demand a harsh punishment.

How many of us find ourselves in the same situation as the holy Saint Paul the Apostle - wanting to do what is right but often doing what we know is wrong. There is always that struggle with the remains of indwelling sin. And sometimes we succumb to it even to the point of committing a mortal sin. We don’t want to, we know we should not do so, but nevertheless the sin in our members leads us to do it anyway. Even the most holy believer can momentarily fall into sin, even mortal sin.

And so there is the path of grace, confession and repentance, open to us when we do fall. However, since none of us knows the time of our death, we do not know the mercy of God that is available at that moment to the believer who has been caught in a sin, even a mortal sin at the moment of death.

In 1 John 2:28 we read, “And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.” The idea of the original Greek text here can be equated to that of a child being caught with his hand in the cookie jar so to speak by his parent. When Christ comes again we are to be found doing works of righteousness, not sinning. The same is true at our death. If we are caught in sin at our death, we cannot face Christ with a clear conscience. We will have to stand before him with our head bowed and our tail between our legs because we will not have confidence before him. We will then have to trust in his mercy.

It seems to me that many times Roman Catholics are so quick to condemn and damn to hell Christians who fall. I’m not talking about lost sinners who have rejected the saving Gospel of Christ. For them the fires of hell await. But I am always amazed at how hell and the loss of salvation is hung over the heads of Christians like the sword of Damacles.

 

[mozart-250]

Agnus_Dei:

I just read these threads…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103439
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=106180

and i now am depressed beyond belief
.
.
I feel forsaken and betrayed…somone help.

Hey Agnus_Dei…if you read what I said, I feel your pain.

However, opinions about what the Catholic faith states may differ from what the Catholic faith actually states.

Might I suggest
(1) Open your Bible and read all relevant Scriptures very carefully
(2) Research the writings of the Church Fathers on this issue…the closer to apostolic the better. Understand that the Church Fathers wrote in times of persecution under which some believers would deny the faith (apostasy).
(3) Look at the Catechism and read exactly what it is states and “is-not” stating
(4) If there are any other sources that Catholics consider infallible on the topic please bring them to the table…as I am a non-Catholic am not aware of all of this.
(5) Anything beyond this is somebody’s opinion

And I might propose the correct answer to your hypothetical is “I don’t know”

Just one parting question…

In one of these threads there was an interesting quote by a Priest that the most often committed and least frequently confessed mortal sin is the sin of bearing false witness. If I take this statement at face value and take the most restrictive view of mortal sin possible, I might ask who among us has eternal life. Maybe we are all going to hell.

And now back to the piano.

 

[VociMike]

Again, Agnus_Dei, you are focusing on sins that seem to be minor (first, masturbation, now in this case, missing Mass). Now, change your scenario to, e.g., one who has just killed and eaten a child, and then gets hit by a car. Are you prepared to believe that person would go to hell without chance to repent? Are you as bothered by the fate of that person as by the fate of the person who misses Mass?

I think, based upon your examples, that your real issue is more about sins that you don’t think are mortal, rather than about dying with unrepented mortal sin on your soul.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Archbishop:

John: I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I did not mean to imply that God ever just looks the other way at our sins. In His holiness He can never do that. His just nature would never permit him to do so. But, a loving Father has mercy on his children even when justice may demand a harsh punishment.
.

Hi

Spiritual Suicide

You can obtain supernatural life by yielding to actual graces you receive. God keeps giving you these divine pushes, and all you have to do is go along.

For instance, he moves you to repentance, and if you take the hint you can find yourself in the
confessional, where the guilt for your sins is remitted (John 20:21–23). Through the sacrament of penance, through your reconciliation to God, you receive sanctifying grace. But you can lose it again by sinning mortally (1 John 5:16–17).

Keep that word in mind: mortal. It means death. Mortal sins are deadly sins because they kill off this supernatural life, this sanctifying grace. Mortal sins can’t coexist with the supernatural life, because by their nature such sins are saying “No” to God, while sanctifying grace would be saying “Yes.”

Venial sins don’t destroy supernatural life, and they don’t even lessen it. Mortal sins destroy it outright. The trouble with venial sins is that they weaken us, making us more vulnerable to mortal sins.

When you lose supernatural life, there’s nothing you can do on your own to regain it. You’re reduced to the merely natural life again, and no natural act can merit a supernatural reward. You can merit a supernatural reward only by being made able to act above your nature, which you can do only if you have help—grace.

To regain supernatural life, you have to receive actual graces from God. Think of these as helping graces. Such graces differ from sanctifying grace in that they aren’t a quality of the soul and don’t abide in it. Rather, actual graces enable the soul to perform some supernatural act, such as an act of faith or repentance. If the soul responds to actual grace and makes the appropriate supernatural act, it again receives supernatural life.

The whole thing is here:
Grace: what it is and what it does

In the end I have to agree with Mozart-250 because God is Judge, not I. Having said that - we are to be always vigilant, correcting one another, and ‘‘Perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect’’. God gives us mercy all the time - will he do so if, at the moment of death - which is of His choosing, which implies that, if we turned away: we’re “busted”? I don’t know. Is it worth the gamble? Is the loss of eternity worth a moment of selfish self-gratification?

Christ IS merciful, yes - beyond doubt that is true. So much so that for our whole lives we are given opportunty after opportunity to come to Him, even after coming to Him we have many opportunities for repentance…A just God, who loves His children would (entirely My Opinion here) - knowing that death is coming for one of them, would give grace to overcome the last deadly sin of this earth so they could be with Him in eternity. What would that Just God do if - that child willfully said NO, after all His Love, all His Grace, all his patience? Remember the Children of Israel in the desert. “40 years I endured that generation I swore in my wrath, they shall not enter my rest” Yes we have christ…but God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. Christ makes us more accountable - as we have the Spirit, and the Eucharist…not less accountable. IMHO.

Peace

John

 

[Mijoy2]

Another thing to keep in mind, Agnus_Dei, is that for a sin to be mortal, it requires full consent of the will. To use your example, if one were to masturbate reluctantly, out of a weak moment and fueled by habit, the FULL consent becomes lessened. However if one has painfully battled this habit by continuous trips to the confessional; was awarded graces to help reduce the urges, then in an in your face act of disobedience decided to act out again and was not remorseful, I’d think the sin being mortal in nature becomes much more obvious.

Remember: Grave matter (your example always is) , full knowledge and full consent (much more subjective).

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

mozart-250:

Concerning 2 Peter 2:20-21 the text has the phrases:

• “again become entangled and overcome by them”
• "turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
• “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.”

This really reads to me as when a believer returns to the state they were in prior to conversion. This is consistent with other Scriptures in the same vein that Calvinists have problems with and is consistent with Classic Methodism.

I believe, myself (again, my opinion here) That God holds us accountable for what we know. Love and Grace are His, He gives us Love our whole lives, and the Grace to come to know and believe in Him. If we refuse that - we die. The same is true of sin - He gives us the grace (through the Church) to know sin, what it is and what it does to us. Once we have Full Knowledge that something is a sin, which in a way implies understanding WHY it is a sin - we are held accountable for that. Which is why, I believe - those who teach are held more accountable than those who are taught. [James 3:1] This thread was started with the premise that the person in question - whose name escapes me now - was someone who had that knowledge.

The description given in Peter - perfectly describes one who is in the state of Mortal Sin. Please see HERE under “Spiritual Suicide”. All this debate over Mortal Sin, the fact that it IS mortal, seems to me at least to be why Christ talked so much about hell. Yes we ‘slip up’, if we commit what would otherwise be a mortal sin not knowing that it is a mortal sin - we are held accountable still - but as venial…with an appropriate time in purgatory to go with it. However…KNOWING what it is - that is the question…not believing it - but KNOWING it…and doing it anyway, yes - that constitutes Mortal (Deadly) sin. I cannot, in conscience, simply say - “ok: do what you want, God won’t condemn you for it under these circumstances” because A) I don’t know that and B) we’re talking about eternity here C) I am accountable for every stray word - as we all are (Matthew 12:36)

God loves us - very true. He also expects obedience, and holds us accountable for everything we do and say - hence temporal punishment, Purgatory, and Hell. He is also a Just God.

One last thing about this - not accepting the Truth (Regarding Catholicism) doesn’t in any way alleviate the culpability for the acts committed. The Cafeteria was never really open to begin with

Peace

John