Two questions about the trinity

[Sky_River]

1-How can all 3 members of the Trinity be the same person, when the Bible clearly identifies them as having their own individual identities?

2-Jesus prayed to obey the will of the Father. How could they be the same person, if Jesus was obedient to the father (which implied seperate identity) and implied they had different “wills”?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

1-How can all 3 members of the Trinity be the same person, when the Bible clearly identifies them as having their own individual identities?

2-Jesus prayed to obey the will of the Father. How could they be the same person, if Jesus was obedient to the father (which implied seperate identity) and implied they had different “wills”?

Well, actually, the Trinity is Three Divine Persons (not 'the same person) in One God.
That takes care of your #1.

It also I think takes care of #2, because, again, the Trinity is THREE Divine Persons in One God. So Jesus and the Father (and the Spirit) are all One God, but Three Divine Persons in that God.

It’s a mystery.

 

[ClearWater]

1-How can all 3 members of the Trinity be the same person, when the Bible clearly identifies them as having their own individual identities?

2-Jesus prayed to obey the will of the Father. How could they be the same person, if Jesus was obedient to the father (which implied seperate identity) and implied they had different “wills”?

Some say that a marriage with a child is like the trinity in that you have the father, mother, who become one, have an offspring.

You have the father, who is not the mother. You have the mother, who is not the father. You have a child, who is not the father or the mother. Yet, they are one family.

See also the legend of St. Augustine regarding understanding the mystery of the Trinity.

wdtprs.com/blog/2012/06/st-augustine-the-trinity-and-the-boy-2/

 

[Vico]

1-How can all 3 members of the Trinity be the same person, when the Bible clearly identifies them as having their own individual identities?

2-Jesus prayed to obey the will of the Father. How could they be the same person, if Jesus was obedient to the father (which implied separate identity) and implied they had different “wills”?

There are two natures (divine and human) in the Son and two wills (divine and human). Also, per the Council of Florence, there is interpenetration of the persons (a dogma of faith):Because of this unity the Father is whole in the Son, whole in the holy Spirit; the Son is whole in the Father, whole in the holy Spirit; the holy Spirit is whole in the Father, whole in the Son. No one of them precedes another in eternity or excels in greatness or surpasses in power.
Also, God is not a creature so one cannot apply the logic that applies to creatures to God. No parts are introduced into the essence do to the three persons; their distinction lies in the relationship. Catechism:251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82

252 The Church uses

• (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
• (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
• (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

 

[PurdueEngineer]

1-How can all 3 members of the Trinity be the same person, when the Bible clearly identifies them as having their own individual identities?

The nature of the Trinity is that they are 3 persons in 1 being. 3 “whos” and 1 “what”.

2-Jesus prayed to obey the will of the Father. How could they be the same person, if Jesus was obedient to the father (which implied seperate identity) and implied they had different “wills”?

Jesus was both 100% man and 100% God. So Jesus had both a divine and human will. By saying that Jesus was obedient to the Father, it means that Jesus brought His human will into perfect submission to the divine will.

 

[HoistedSheep]

I also find this theology difficult. Think of it this way: When you hold someone’s hand, there are three actions at play. There is your consciousness, which is what allows you to will this action, there is yourself, which is part of this consciousness that acts on this will, and there is your hand, which carries out this will. Your conciseness is God, because it is the source of this will, your body, or your physical self is Christ, because you are a part of this conciseness that acts on this will, and your hand is the Holy Spirt, because it carries out this will. All three are separate, but all three derive from and depend on your conciseness, your source, and all three work together to form, act on, and carry out this will.

 

[Dtmccameron]

youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

“When you hold someone’s hand, there are three actions at play. There is your consciousness, which is what allows you to will this action, there is yourself, which is part of this consciousness that acts on this will, and there is your hand, which carries out this will.”

This would imply that 2 of the Divine Persons a parts of the one, or creations of the first.

“Some say that a marriage with a child is like the trinity in that you have the father, mother, who become one, have an offspring.”

And yet a Father is not The Family and a Mother is not The Family, etc. The Holy Spirit is God, as is the Father, as is the Son.

Further, the child is a product, if you will, of the mother and father, and by no means equal to his parents, or consubstantial.

 

[racheljohnson]

In response to your first question, I have a few analogies for you. The trinity is like a clover. It’s one plant, but it has 3 distinct and different branches. Also, think of a man. This man could be father to someone, a brother to someone else, a husband, a cousin, a son, etc. These are all different roles, but it is the same person. The trinity is like that as well

In response to your second question, it sounds like you are questioning Jesus’ divinity and equality to God the Father. When thinking about this, I like to look back to Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness” Clearly, God is not alone. The logical explanation is that Jesus was there at the beginning of time and contributed to creation. In addition to this, as stated in John’s prologue, Jesus was indeed there during creation: " All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that[a] has come into being." I hope this helped!

 

[onegod123]

i really want to understand if the trinity is a true doctrine, but none of this post use scriptures to back the claims. Please use scripture.

 

[Tomdstone]

2-Jesus prayed to obey the will of the Father. How could they be the same person, if Jesus was obedient to the father (which implied seperate identity) and implied they had different “wills”?

Another question is from: Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
If the Son is God, shouldn’t He know the day or hour also?

 

[Vico]

i really want to understand if the trinity is a true doctrine, but none of this post use scriptures to back the claims. Please use scripture.

Matthew 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

John 8:58
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
John 10:30The Father and I are one.
1 John 5:5-8Who [indeed] is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.
2 Cor. 13:13The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.
Heb. 9:14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
Genesis 1:26:Then God said, ‘Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness.’
Genesis 3:22:Then the Lord God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.’
Isaiah 6:8Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’

 

[Church_Militant]

i really want to understand if the trinity is a true doctrine, but none of this post use scriptures to back the claims. Please use scripture.

You need to realize that the doctrine of the Trinity is based upon both scripture and the writings of the early Christians and has been defined by the Catholic Church based upon both of those sources.

If you want scripture…I can supply it .

The earliest references that imply the Trinity are:

Genesis 1:1-2 reads
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

Here we see the Holy Spirit as active in creation and, because of that we see that he is God.

Then in Genesis 1:26 we see, “26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.””

Notice please the plural, “we”. Was God talking to Himself? Not at all…

Notice the following…

in Deuteronomy 6:4 we see, "“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD;”

Now some people who deny the Trinity seek to use this verse to support their case, but there is a serious problem with that in the Hebrew because the word “one” above is the Hebrew word “echad” and is the very same word used in Genesis 2:24 which reads, “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.”

Now it is pretty obvious that in the 2nd passage the meaning is that two are one unity, which shows us that we need to understand that that same plurality and unity is found in God. It does not prove the Trinity, but when taken in context of other passages where we find God spoken of (by Jesus no less) as “the Father” and “the Holy Spirit” (who can be blasphemed against. Since only God can be blasphemed, what does that tell us?) and then we have the 1st chapter of John’s Gospel where it says “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God;
3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” and here it is speaking quite plainly about Jesus Christ as being active in creation and we have already seen that the Holy Spirit was also involved.

Finally, we see Our Lord Jesus Christ telling us plainly “I and the Father are one.” in John 10:30 and John 17:21 where He plainly states that he is in the father and the father is in Him. Since all of these were active in creation then that makes a strong case for the Trinity.

Remember also that the great commission in Matthew 28:19 says, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” which makes it very clear indeed, else why would that be one of the last things that Our Lord taught before the Ascension?

There is a great deal more, but I believe these are compelling.

You might also make a careful study of the following:

• The Trinity
• Explaining the Trinity
• Blessed Trinity, The
• How the Trinity Explains Everything
• How the Trinity Explains Everything (Encore)
• How the Trinity Explains Everything (Encore)
• Can you explain the Trinity in plain language?
• Was the Trinity ever contemplated, expected, imagined, prophesied, or talked about before the time of Christ?

 

[javid]

1-How can all 3 members of the Trinity be the same person, when the Bible clearly identifies them as having their own individual identities?

Hi. As others said, there are Three Persons in One God.

I have a similar question. let me ask it here:

Question: Can a Divine Person be a Person of Trinity, singly?

God bless you

 

[onegod123]

Thank you for the scripture references.
Genesis 1;26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

First of all this verse doesn’t prove trinity it could be 2 to infinite but you will find the answer in Gen 1;27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: male and female created he them.
You see in this verse its singular “he” and also shows the distinction between plural and singular where Adam and Eve are refereed to as “them” but God 'HE". therefore this shows that its a singular God not three persons.
Also Jesus himself said in Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.

Regarding John 1;1-3, Here its speaking about God and His Word but does not show any distinction between them. And actually if you look at the Greek manuscripts of John 1;1 its actually says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the God was Word " showing that God and the word are the same indivisible being.
Regarding Matthew 28:19, the problem with this verse is that there is no other verse in the bible that mention anything about baptizing in the name of the father, and of the son and of the holy spirit. but the scripture tells us according to 2 Corinthians 13:1 “this is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” and Isaiah 34:16 “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”
This verses tell us that every word in the bible has a another word somewhere in the bible saying the same or supporting that verse. Nonetheless we don’t find any verse in the bible that support the verse in Mathew 28:19 even the apostle baptized in Jesus name not in the father, the son and the Holy spirits. Also, this are not names they are titles for example when i am born i am a son to my parents but my name is not son, when i have a child i am a father to my child but it it not my name but are all titles.

 

[Dtmccameron]

The trinity is like a clover. It’s one plant, but it has 3 distinct and different branches.

That would imply that one of the Persons of the Trinity is roughly equal to 33.333% of God.

Also, think of a man. This man could be father to someone, a brother to someone else, a husband, a cousin, a son, etc. These are all different roles, but it is the same person. The trinity is like that as well

A Person of the Trinity is not a role of a single God. God is not putting on a different hat when He’s Jesus, and another when He’s the Holy Spirit.

That’d almost be Sabellianism.

Sorry for giving you guff, it’s not an easy thing to explain.

 

[ScriptStudent]

Regarding John 1;1-3, Here its speaking about God and His Word but does not show any distinction between them. And actually if you look at the Greek manuscripts of John 1;1 its actually says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the God was Word " showing that God and the word are the same indivisible being.

This is simply not true.

First off, you misplaced the definite article in your “translation” of the Greek. καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Secondly, this passage does speak of two distinct persons (ὁ θεὸς and ὁ λόγος) while still unifying them as one God. The Greek grammar makes this apparent, though you can easily see it in accurate English translations, too.

 

[God_I_Love]

1-How can all 3 members of the Trinity be the same person, when the Bible clearly identifies them as having their own individual identities?

2-Jesus prayed to obey the will of the Father. How could they be the same person, if Jesus was obedient to the father (which implied seperate identity) and implied they had different “wills”?

Ok so I think a lot of people have a lot of misunderstanding because of the way it is phrased. “3 Persons in one God”. I understand it in the following manner.
One God in Three Capacities. The Father’s Capacity is the Alpha and The Omega, the Beginning and the End (Rev 22:13). The Son’s Capacity is to reveal the Father (Whom abides in Christ) to All Flesh while always being one with the Father (John 17:21). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26) through the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit in Christ (whom knows and is one with the Father) in us. The Spirit’s capacity is show us the Son, whom in turn reveals to us the Father. All of these are one.

 

[ScriptStudent]

Regarding Matthew 28:19, the problem with this verse is that there is no other verse in the bible that mention anything about baptizing in the name of the father, and of the son and of the holy spirit. but the scripture tells us according to 2 Corinthians 13:1 “this is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” and Isaiah 34:16 “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”
This verses tell us that every word in the bible has a another word somewhere in the bible saying the same or supporting that verse. Nonetheless we don’t find any verse in the bible that support the verse in Mathew 28:19 even the apostle baptized in Jesus name not in the father, the son and the Holy spirits. Also, this are not names they are titles for example when i am born i am a son to my parents but my name is not son, when i have a child i am a father to my child but it it not my name but are all titles.

If you will permit me to use a euphemism, this is a very interesting argument.

First, the Bible as the word of God only needs to say something once in order for it to be true. If God is Truth, why would He need to say something twice in order for it to be true/binding? Please, enlighten me.

Second, are you aware of what Paul is actually referring to in 2 Cor 13:1? His statement is in reference to the sinful actions or the alleged sinful actions of the Corinthians. The practice of needing at least two witnesses comes from Dt 17:2-6 and 19:15, which deals with verifying sins, crimes and inflicting punishment. The context of 2 Corinthians or the Mosaic Laws has nothing to do with the authenticity of the word of God.

 

[Church_Militant]

Thank you for the scripture references.
Genesis 1;26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

First of all this verse doesn’t prove trinity it could be 2 to infinite but you will find the answer in Gen 1;27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: male and female created he them.
You see in this verse its singular “he” and also shows the distinction between plural and singular where Adam and Eve are refereed to as “them” but God 'HE". therefore this shows that its a singular God not three persons.
Also Jesus himself said in Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.

Regarding John 1;1-3, Here its speaking about God and His Word but does not show any distinction between them. And actually if you look at the Greek manuscripts of John 1;1 its actually says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the God was Word " showing that God and the word are the same indivisible being.
Regarding Matthew 28:19, the problem with this verse is that there is no other verse in the bible that mention anything about baptizing in the name of the father, and of the son and of the holy spirit. but the scripture tells us according to 2 Corinthians 13:1 “this is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” and Isaiah 34:16 “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”
**This verses tell us that every word in the bible has a another word somewhere in the bible saying the same or supporting that verse. **Nonetheless we don’t find any verse in the bible that support the verse in Mathew 28:19 even the apostle baptized in Jesus name not in the father, the son and the Holy spirits. Also, this are not names they are titles for example when i am born i am a son to my parents but my name is not son, when i have a child i am a father to my child but it it not my name but are all titles.

Okay…so you are either Jehovah’s Witness or Oneness Pentecostal here to pursue an agenda of proselytism against us Catholics and every other Trinitarian community in Christianity?

Your argument fails on many levels…not the least of which is that you force your interpretation onto scripture as opposed to remaining faithful to what it actually says.

None of that has to prove the Trinity so far as you are concerned. it needs only prove a plurality …which shoots your teachings right out the tube.

Good luck with that…

 

[Vico]

Thank you for the scripture references.
Genesis 1;26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

First of all this verse doesn’t prove trinity it could be 2 to infinite but you will find the answer in Gen 1;27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: male and female created he them.
You see in this verse its singular “he” and also shows the distinction between plural and singular where Adam and Eve are refereed to as “them” but God 'HE". therefore this shows that its a singular God not three persons.
Also Jesus himself said in Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.

Regarding John 1;1-3, Here its speaking about God and His Word but does not show any distinction between them. And actually if you look at the Greek manuscripts of John 1;1 its actually says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the God was Word " showing that God and the word are the same indivisible being.
Regarding Matthew 28:19, the problem with this verse is that there is no other verse in the bible that mention anything about baptizing in the name of the father, and of the son and of the holy spirit. but the scripture tells us according to 2 Corinthians 13:1 “this is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” and Isaiah 34:16 “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”
This verses tell us that every word in the bible has a another word somewhere in the bible saying the same or supporting that verse. Nonetheless we don’t find any verse in the bible that support the verse in Mathew 28:19 even the apostle baptized in Jesus name not in the father, the son and the Holy spirits. Also, this are not names they are titles for example when i am born i am a son to my parents but my name is not son, when i have a child i am a father to my child but it it not my name but are all titles.

The quotes regarding “us” are not intended to demonstrate trinity but plurality of persons. There is divine simplicity, that is, one God in three persons, not three gods. The Trinity is not three creatures so cannot be compared to creatures Adam and Eve. Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Baptism in the Most Holy Trinity, as Jesus said he was one with the Father and in John 17:5:And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.