two questions

[fineca]

Hello all,
I have two questions:

1. I sometimes think that the Catholic way of seeing sin and how to get rid of it, how to be saved, is not satisfying…or well, I’m perfectly happy with the teaching of the Church, everything is quite clear, but when it comes to the most important question, how one is saved, the problems start. Ok one is saved by living and dying in the state of grace. That’s ok, but in practice it’s not that clear. One can lose the state of grace by just a single mortal sin. But then there is no final and absolute all-encompassing list of mortal sins. I think the CHurch even says that nobody can know for sure if they’re in the state of grace. The Church is here to tell us how to live and be saved but then it fails to do that in practice. I mean that some examinations of conscience call certain things sins while others don’t and when you go ask a priest he’ll tell you one thing and then another will tell you another thing and there’s no magisterium list of all mortal sins. I’m sure there are better examples but one faithful Catholic theologian I know says smoking is a sin against the 5th commandment, and if chosen freely and consciously knowing the harmful effects it can be mortal. Another faithful theologian says it is no sin at all just like coffee or wine. Then when it comes to dating, you get a different answer everywhere about how sinful this and that is (fornication etc. is obvious but when it comes to kissing, embracing, lying on a bed together, necking, touching it gets tricky…). Also somewhere you’d read that stealing 100 dollars is a mortal sin but one faithful priest told me when I said a friend has never paid his train tickets and thus stolen a looot from the state that everyone in Italy or Spain does that and that it’s not a big deal not to pay the train ticket…sooooo in manymany cases according to other Catholic sources you’d be headed toward hell if u didn’t repent of your practice while others would tell you it’s all fine… isn’t this bothering any other people except me?
2. There was a question about dating a divorced man…something similar: a Catholic man is married to a Lutheran. she takes a civil divorce, they don’t have an annulment but the man could get one due to the fact that she obviously didn’t consider marriage indissoluble since she left. This man meets a Catholic woman who has “divorced” her Lutheran husband. The annulment process is on its way. Now can these two Catholic “divorcés” start “seeing” each other in a sincere friendship based on common interests and understanding, go dancing or have dinner together etc.? They wouldn’t have sex of course, but would not be pure “friends” either but rather hold open an option of perhaps getting married in the future if they both get annulments. So are modest hugs, dances, kisses on cheeks and a sense of affection or attraction in this situation sinful?

Thank you
Emil

 

[Karin]

2. There was a question about dating a divorced man…something similar: a Catholic man is married to a Lutheran. she takes a civil divorce, they don’t have an annulment but the man could get one due to the fact that she obviously didn’t consider marriage indissoluble since she left. This man meets a Catholic woman who has “divorced” her Lutheran husband. The annulment process is on its way. Now can these two Catholic “divorcés” start “seeing” each other in a sincere friendship based on common interests and understanding, go dancing or have dinner together etc.? They wouldn’t have sex of course, but would not be pure “friends” either but rather hold open an option of perhaps getting married in the future if they both get annulments. So are modest hugs, dances, kisses on cheeks and a sense of affection or attraction in this situation sinful?

Thank you
Emil

In regards to #2…yes it is sinful. While the man has gotten his annilment and is free to pursue another relationship the woman in the eyes of the CHurch is still married. So they are both commiting adultrey (sp?)…until here annulment is final and complete!

 

[fineca]

Hmm…how do you define adultery? Isn’t adultery is having sex outside your marriage or desiring it? In my example neither has an annulment yet but say they get one, that means there was no marriage to start with, so they couldn’t be committing adultery since they’re probably not married at all at the moment. Are you completely sure about your judgment or just giving your opinion?
What about just seeing a person of the other sex without any modest kissing and hugging, but seeing them just as friends for the time being, going to restaurants and so on? That should be permissible…??

 

[Della]

There is a list of mortal sins–it’s called the Seven Deadly Sins:

Pride vs. Humility: Seeing ourselves as we are and not comparing ourselves to others is humility. Pride and vanity are competitive, humility is not.

Avarice/Greed vs. Generosity: This is about more than money. Generosity means letting others get the credit or praise. It is giving without having expectations of the other person. Greed wants to get its “fair share” or a bit more.

Envy vs. Love: “Love is patient, love is kind…” Love actively seeks the good of others for their sake. Envy resents the good others receive or even might receive. Envy is almost indistinguishable from pride at times.

Wrath/Anger vs. Kindness: Kindness means taking the tender approach, with patience and compassion. Anger is often our first reaction to the problems of others. Impatience with the faults of others is related to this.

Lust vs. Self control: Self control and self mastery prevent pleasure from killing the soul by suffocation. Legitimate pleasures are controlled in the same way an athlete’s muscles are: for maximum efficiency without damage. Lust is the self-destructive drive for pleasure out of proportion to its worth. Sex, power, or image can be used well, but they tend to go out of control.

Gluttony vs. Faith and Temperance: Temperance accepts the natural limits of pleasures and preserves this natural balance. This does not pertain only to food, but to entertainment and other legitimate goods, and even the company of others.

Sloth vs. Zeal: Zeal is the energetic response of the heart to God’s commands. The other sins work together to deaden the spiritual senses so we first become slow to respond to God and then drift completely into the sleep of complacency.

Also, there is the Ten Commandments, which are still very much in force.

The Church doesn’t micro-manage our lives, but rather gives us guidelines by which to live our lives in union with Christ. So, anything that will separate us from him is sin and some of the answers you have gotten to your moral dilemmas, that seem to contradict one another, are meant to keep us from “the near occasion of sin” or the temptation to sin. If they don’t do that, then don’t follow that person’s solution or answer if it could lead you into sin. That is why it would be best for your hypothetical couple to not engage in any romantic get-togethers until they both have gotten their annulments–to keep temptation from luring them into sin.

 

[Karin]

fineca:

Hmm…how do you define adultery? Isn’t adultery is having sex outside your marriage or desiring it? In my example neither has an annulment yet but say they get one, that means there was no marriage to start with, so they couldn’t be committing adultery since they’re probably not married at all at the
moment.
**If neither has an annulment than they are commiting adultrey…if they both get an annulment than they are ok **
Are you completely sure about your judgment or just giving your opinion?
What about just seeing a person of the other sex without any modest kissing and hugging, but seeing them just as friends for the time being, going to restaurants and so on? That should be permissible…??

Your example says the man has the annulment and is divorced and the woman is divorced and getting, in the process of getting an annulment. In the eyes of the R.C.C. she is still married as she has not recieved the annulment yet (please see post #1)
Adultrey- extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations
**Please note that without an annulment from the Church the woman in your example is considered MARRIED, even though she has a civil divorce. **

 

[Benedictus]

fineca:

isn’t this bothering any other people except me?

Yes, sometimes, but I have yet to come up with a better way of thinking about it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Karin:

Your example says the man has the annulment and is divorced and the woman is divorced and getting, in the process of getting an annulment. In the eyes of the R.C.C. she is still married as she has not recieved the annulment yet (please see post #1)
Adultrey- extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations
Please note that without an annulment from the Church the woman in your example is considered MARRIED, even though she has a civil divorce.

Yes, but in the example given there is no extramarital sex going on. They are dateing but no sex so no sin is occuring.

 

[Karin]

ByzCath:

Yes, but in the example given there is no extramarital sex going on. They are dateing but no sex so no sin is occuring.

and some staunch Catholics would say that dating a married person (married in the sense of legal civil divorce and no annulment) this is a sin…you are still commiting adultery since in the EYES OF THE CHURCH WITHOUT AN ANNULMENT YOU ARE STILL MARRIED!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Karin:

and some staunch Catholics would say that dating a married person (married in the sense of legal civil divorce and no annulment) this is a sin…you are still commiting adultery since in the EYES OF THE CHURCH WITHOUT AN ANNULMENT YOU ARE STILL MARRIED!

Some might think so but in the example given, as there is a civil divorce and the annulment process is being worked I do not think it is a sin.

Also the Church does not as the Church defines adultery as…

[2380](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2380.htm’) *Adultery *refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.171 The sixth commandment and the New Testament forbid adultery absolutely.172 The prophets denounce the gravity of adultery; they see it as an image of the sin of idolatry.173

That is directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can see it speaks of sexual relations, which are not happening in this example.

 

[Karin]

ByzCath:

Some might think so but in the example given, as there is a civil divorce and the annulment process is being worked I do not think it is a sin..

The annulment process is under way but not granted…there is a difference…the Person seeking the annulment MAY not get it then what!!! And as long as the annulment is in progress or has not been granted they are considered MARRIED in the eyes of the Church!

ByzCath:

Also the Church does not as the Church defines adultery as…

2380 *Adultery *refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.171 The sixth commandment and the New Testament forbid adultery absolutely.172 The prophets denounce the gravity of adultery; they see it as an image of the sin of idolatry.173

That is directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can see it speaks of sexual relations, which are not happening in this example.

You will see that it states adultery is also DESIRE (as per what you have quoted)
***CCC #2528 *"Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mt 5:28).

**

**

 

[Karin]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbor’s. Every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. **2514 St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life. In the Catholic catechetical tradition, the ninth commandment forbids carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another’s goods.
**

 

[Karin]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**2384 ***Divorce *is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another’s husband to herself.

 

[carol_marie]

Regarding question #1 - I can only tell you that I don’t worry about being “saved” or not. This is how I approach it… I love God with all my heart. I try to love my neighbor as myself. If I know something is wrong (either I know for certain - like lying) or my conscience tells me (don’t skip paying the train fee) then I don’t do it. When I mess up, I go to confession and ask for God’s forgiveness. I try my very best so someday when I stand before God I hope he’ll say, “Well done my child.” That’s all I can do. I know God loves me so very much… more than I can imagine and he doesn’t WANT to send me to hell. I try my best & the rest I leave up to His infinate grace & mercy. I have peace.

Now… #2 - I wouldn’t view having a good friend such as you described as sin. I would however busy myself with getting that annulment so I am free to date more seriously if that’s where it looks like it’s going. Out to eat - movies - attending mass - an occasional peck on the cheek - no biggie. But nothing more.

Just my opinions…
Blessings!
CM

 

[carol_marie]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**2384 ***Divorce *is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another’s husband to herself.

I wonder though if this assumes sex? Because it says “the woman who lives with him is an adulteress…” Of course that is a HUGE :tsktsk: But a friend sort of thing… ? (Friend without benefits )

 

[Karin]

carol marie:

I wonder though if this assumes sex? Because it says “the woman who lives with him is an adulteress…” Of course that is a HUGE :tsktsk: But a friend sort of thing… ? (Friend without benefits )

"If a husband, separated from his wife,* approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery"***

---

"Every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

 

[Forest-Pine]

Would a married Catholic man consider it adultery for his wife to go on dates in the hopes of furthering a romantic relationship with another man? Would he be alright with seeing his wife holding hands with, absorbed in conversation with, or planning a future with another man?

Adultery is not simply sex.

A person who has entered into a marriage is bound to that marriage unless and until the church says otherwise. She is not free to date, to plan a future with someone else, because she does not have that future to willingly give since she has already given it elsewhere.

As for the authority of the church to bind and loose one’s sins: One priest might say you sinned while another would not. However, we are to respectfully submit to the authority of the church. Therefore, if we follow the guidance given to us in good faith (even if it was unknowingly wrong) then the sin is not on our hands. On the other hand, if we know we sinned and then seek out someone we know will tell us otherwise, then it is we who have erred. The church recognizes this obstacle and has processes in place (both in practice and in the catechism) for when such an occurence takes place. Basically, one who follows the church in good faith will not be held responsible for doing so.

 

[carol_marie]

“If a husband, separated from his wife,** approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery”**

"Every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

Hmmm… I might need to rethink my answer to # 2…

To the OP - get that annulment - then you don’t need to ask the question.

 

[Karin]

carol marie:

Hmmm… I might need to rethink my answer to # 2…

To the OP - get that annulment - then you don’t need to ask the question.

Yup.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

“If a husband, separated from his wife,** approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery”**

---

"Every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

Myself - I think the thing in question here, or what SHOULD be in question here - is whether or not the man (OR the woman) is approaching the other with LUST in their heart. Feelings of love, friendship, closeness, are NOT sinful. Sex for the sake of sex, or to further enhance the ‘relationship’ ARE sinful and must be dealt with. ( not necessarily by ending the relationship either - but by growing in maturity through prayer, and learning to have a close friendship type relationship with a person of the opposite sex)This is true EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT MARRIED as it counts towards fornication and therefore is adultery - AGAINST GOD - who we are married to, or at least ‘engaged’ to in the body, unless we have a vocation to marriage with another - as ordained by God.

peace

John

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You will see that it states adultery is also DESIRE (as per what you have quoted)
***CCC #2528 ***"Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mt 5:28).

So now you know the mind of those who date? So you think it is impossible to date someone with out lustfully looking at a woman?

Then everyone who is dating or has ever dated is guilty of adultery.