Two strange dreams

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Good thing St Joseph didn’t think dreams were superstitions!

Good thing Daniel didn’t either!

Or Joseph son of Jacob!

And for those Catholics who don’t read their bible check out what is said about dreams and visions specifically.

The list goes on and on.

Dreams are revelatory, warning, or guidance.

What they aren’t are road maps, sacraments, or the bible.

A good dream interpreter can help people avoid danger and loss of time.

Good dream interpreters are hard to find and it is the bad ones have given dreams a bad reputation.

That said their are soulish dreams which derive from your strong personal desires that do not come from god. Spicy food can also give you bad dreams. Psychological trauma can also give you repetitive nightmares. Medications can also cause nightmares or stop dreams.

Anyone who claims to know that dreams are to be ignored are very uneducated and inexperienced on the subject.

Even sleep specialists don’t know what dreams are for. And many experts have noted a prophetic quality to dreams that they can’t explain. There are many types of dreams which adds to the confusion.

Bk
I do NOT consider myself well educated, or experienced in dreams BUT I do try to follow the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church, since I Am a Catholic. AND Fr. John A.Hardon S.J.'s Catholic Dictionary says, if one is concerned about a dream they should," seek out a thoroughly reputable and honest therapist, who will not advise or do anything that is contrary to Christian moral teaching." Further, “On the other hand, to believe in one’s own dreams or those related to others as foretelling future events is a sin of superstition.”
“All the evidence from Scripture and the lives of Saints indicates that when God makes use of dreams as an extraordinary means of communication He also makes sure the person realizes where the dream originated.”
Fr. Hardon’s cause for Canonization is in the process, SOOO I will take his word for what he teaches. I do NOT consider him very uneducated or inexperienced God Bless, Memaw
 
Excellent post. And written with love.

Does this person have any writings about dreams beyond what you referenced?

From a pastoral standpoint I can see where he is coming from and his caution is advisable.

However the vast majority of Psychologists have absolutely no clue whatsoever on how to interpret dreams and catholic mental health providers who are living authentic and courageous christian virtuous lives are rare. Usually you can find those ones embroiled in some controversy involving faith and morals lol.

That all being said some dreams are prophetic and some dreams are not dreams but visions of the night. But yes there are some over enthusiastic types that will claim revelations when there are none. Prophetic dreams are very rare but they do occur.

The person you referenced may be experienced in pastoral care but what they say is their opinion and they are not infallible. I do generally agree with his statement, however I do so because there are very few catholic mental health providers with a deeply spiritual life who are gifted with discernment, wisdom, and a good study of the bible.
 
Excellent post. And written with love.

Does this person have any writings about dreams beyond what you referenced?

From a pastoral standpoint I can see where he is coming from and his caution is advisable.

However the vast majority of Psychologists have absolutely no clue whatsoever on how to interpret dreams and catholic mental health providers who are living authentic and courageous christian virtuous lives are rare. Usually you can find those ones embroiled in some controversy involving faith and morals lol.

That all being said some dreams are prophetic and some dreams are not dreams but visions of the night. But yes there are some over enthusiastic types that will claim revelations when there are none. Prophetic dreams are very rare but they do occur.

The person you referenced may be experienced in pastoral care but what they say is their opinion and they are not infallible. I do generally agree with his statement, however I do so because there are very few catholic mental health providers with a deeply spiritual life who are gifted with discernment, wisdom, and a good study of the bible.
Our opinion is certainly not Infallible either but his is far more knowledgeable than yours or mine probably ever will be. Like Fr. Hardon said, when a person receives a prophetic dream, (coming from God,) HE makes sure they know its coming from Him. God Bless, Memaw
 
Dreams in the Old Testament were literary devices used to communicate prophecy. The authors of the Old Testament used dreams to distinguish between prophecy and Revelation which was announced by angels or God Himself. Ancient peoples attributed magical properties to dreams because they had no scientific understanding of them.

Today we know that dream images are produced by discharges in the brain during REM sleep. The first couple of REM cycles reflect what you were seeing or thinking about before you went to sleep. As you run through more cycles, older images that may not be connected are ‘played.’ The brain attempts to piece together a story and make sense of what is seen. As the brain goes through more REM cycles, the images become more macabre and by the time you wake up, the images can be mindblowing.

Attributing prophetic or magical attributes to dreams is actually superstition and a sin. (See CCC 2111)
EKG findings of dreams during rem sleep are not random discharges but look just like normal EKG patterns of an awake individual according to the American academy of sleep medicine. And you make some bold statements that even these experts don’t say, they are more honest saying hey don’t know what dreams are.

Magic or the occult is to suggest dreams are from the devil. Attributing a work of the Holy Spirit to Satan is the unforgivable sin. I don’t read in the Ten Commandments that it say thou shalt not dream or speak of dreams. To say it is superstition is to suggest that nothing of value is present in dreams. And yet we know that god speaks through dreams from the bible and private revelation of many saints including don bosco.

That being said there are he overly curious and excitable types who want their dreams interpreted but do not need he warning or instruction contained within.

Dreams are distinct from visions of he night that reveal future events. Prophets received revelation partially and partially through dreams and visions while a more elevated prophet like Moses communicated directly with god without the symbolism of dreams.

Calling dream interpretation a sinful activity is calling the likes of Daniel and Joseph sinners.

Again bold and incorrect statements which seams to be your style.

Bk
 
EKG findings of dreams during rem sleep are not random discharges but look just like normal EKG patterns of an awake individual according to the American academy of sleep medicine. And you make some bold statements that even these experts don’t say, they are more honest saying hey don’t know what dreams are.

Magic or the occult is to suggest dreams are from the devil. Attributing a work of the Holy Spirit to Satan is the unforgivable sin. I don’t read in the Ten Commandments that it say thou shalt not dream or speak of dreams. To say it is superstition is to suggest that nothing of value is present in dreams. And yet we know that god speaks through dreams from the bible and private revelation of many saints including don bosco.

That being said there are he overly curious and excitable types who want their dreams interpreted but do not need he warning or instruction contained within.

Dreams are distinct from visions of he night that reveal future events. Prophets received revelation partially and partially through dreams and visions while a more elevated prophet like Moses communicated directly with god without the symbolism of dreams.

Calling dream interpretation a sinful activity is calling the likes of Daniel and Joseph sinners.

Again bold and incorrect statements which seams to be your style.

Bk
Ordinary dreams are not the work of the Holy Spirit. To make others think they are can be very misleading and dangerous. Like Fr. Hardon said, if God communicates with one through dreams HE makes them aware it is coming from Him. To compare Joseph and the other prophets and Saints dreams to our dreams, is bordering on superstition. I’d be very careful to imply ordinary dreams, no matter how they seem to us, are coming from the Holy Spirit. God Bless, Memaw
 
Just listened to Friar Hardon and he gives an excellent talk but he’s wrong on a few points.

1). Mystics do write down things all the time because they are instructed to given warnings or testimonies or because of habit of keeping a diary.
2). Blanket all or none statements are generally easily Spotted false opinions.

Remember that padre pio was thought not to have been authentic for some time and he was denied his sacramental duties because the soundness of his mind was questioned.

I completely agree that an authentic visionary or mystic must be pure and live a very holy life.

Nothing friar Hardon said addresses dreams and dream interpretation however.

Dreams are ordinary phenomenon in my experience.

Visions, locutions, excetera are the rare things.

I like his condition that mystics perform miracles and are humble.

However saying that only true visionaries are obedient to the bishop of rome smacks of elitism and false assumption. There are non catholic christians and unbelievers who have had mystical phenomena or visions who were not obedient to rome such as Diego of goudoule and the male mystic of kihebo who’s name I forget.

What Fr. Hardon is Doing is protecting the churches reputation from scandal and the believers from false doctrines, which is commendable, but not true to reality. The church generally only approves mystics or prophets until after they are proven by time.

Also he’s not qualified to state what a pathological mental condition is and in fact does not define what he means by pathological which indicates he’s missusing the word or not accurately using it. It almost sounds condescending and a quick way to dismiss something so as not to waist time.

All in all I agree with him mostly, but reality shows his black and white paint brush doesn’t hold true. However he also makes some very good points that are overlooked. One I already mentioned, the holyness of the person, but the problem is that not all prophets, saints, visionaries, or locutionists are that holy or obedient. Take the example of Jonah the prophet. What about king nebukanezers son who saw the hand writing on the wall.

That being said, the two best known dream interpreters I the bible, Daniel and Joseph, are the only two people in the bible that nothing bad of them is mentioned.

Dreams are a Common Communication of god and Not just Reserved for the saints mentioned in the bible. That smacks of the same bias fr hardon demonstrates. Experts often take their own opinions too seriously.

That being said I also noted him calling Islam a cult created by a false visionary which I agree with, but the Muslims who are having dreams and visions of jesus and thereby converting to Christianity are not all converting to Catholicism, pay homage and give obedience to the catholic bishop of rome, demonstrate purity or total holyness, and many have published their conversion accounts. Does that make them all decievers or deceived? See my point?

His strict criteria are for what he calls perfected saints which also matches his biased strict criteria which are really about protecting the church from scandal and false doctrines.

By the way I am far from being a perfect saint but insure want to be one. Please pray for me that I am perfected. Also please pray for me to have guidance from god about writing a book about the history of dream interpretation and a catholic lay persons view on how to do it with examples.

Bk
 
Just listened to Friar Hardon and he gives an excellent talk but he’s wrong on a few points.

1). Mystics do write down things all the time because they are instructed to given warnings or testimonies or because of habit of keeping a diary.
2). Blanket all or none statements are generally easily Spotted false opinions.

Remember that padre pio was thought not to have been authentic for some time and he was denied his sacramental duties because the soundness of his mind was questioned.

I completely agree that an authentic visionary or mystic must be pure and live a very holy life.

Nothing friar Hardon said addresses dreams and dream interpretation however.

Dreams are ordinary phenomenon in my experience.

Visions, locutions, excetera are the rare things.

I like his condition that mystics perform miracles and are humble.

However saying that only true visionaries are obedient to the bishop of rome smacks of elitism and false assumption. There are non catholic christians and unbelievers who have had mystical phenomena or visions who were not obedient to rome such as Diego of goudoule and the male mystic of kihebo who’s name I forget.

What Fr. Hardon is Doing is protecting the churches reputation from scandal and the believers from false doctrines, which is commendable, but not true to reality. The church generally only approves mystics or prophets until after they are proven by time.

Also he’s not qualified to state what a pathological mental condition is and in fact does not define what he means by pathological which indicates he’s missusing the word or not accurately using it. It almost sounds condescending and a quick way to dismiss something so as not to waist time.

All in all I agree with him mostly, but reality shows his black and white paint brush doesn’t hold true. However he also makes some very good points that are overlooked. One I already mentioned, the holyness of the person, but the problem is that not all prophets, saints, visionaries, or locutionists are that holy or obedient. Take the example of Jonah the prophet. What about king nebukanezers son who saw the hand writing on the wall.

That being said, the two best known dream interpreters I the bible, Daniel and Joseph, are the only two people in the bible that nothing bad of them is mentioned.

Dreams are a Common Communication of god and Not just Reserved for the saints mentioned in the bible. That smacks of the same bias fr hardon demonstrates. Experts often take their own opinions too seriously.

That being said I also noted him calling Islam a cult created by a false visionary which I agree with, but the Muslims who are having dreams and visions of jesus and thereby converting to Christianity are not all converting to Catholicism, pay homage and give obedience to the catholic bishop of rome, demonstrate purity or total holyness, and many have published their conversion accounts. Does that make them all decievers or deceived? See my point?

His strict criteria are for what he calls perfected saints which also matches his biased strict criteria which are really about protecting the church from scandal and false doctrines.

By the way I am far from being a perfect saint but insure want to be one. Please pray for me that I am perfected. Also please pray for me to have guidance from god about writing a book about the history of dream interpretation and a catholic lay persons view on how to do it with examples.

Bk
Fr. John Hardon worked with the Vatican for many, many years, I will trust his word over yours any day. I could live a hundred lives and never ever reach the level of knowledge, humility and holiness he did. Every word he wrote was written in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. He told me that himself. And he wrote many books
No I don’t “see your point”. Jesus gave us ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, Church, and if we sincerely follow the TRUTH, (Jesus) we will come to that Church. God would NOT give us dreams that lead us in other ways. HE may lead us through some of these things but not to them.

You said,
" However saying that only true visionaries are obedient to the bishop of rome smacks of elitism and false assumption. There are non catholic christians and unbelievers who have had mystical phenomena or visions who were not obedient to rome such as Diego of goudoule and the male mystic of kihebo who’s name I forget."

The Catholic Church will never approve a vision or dream or apparition by anyone other than a Catholic source. And only then after years of study to make sure nothing goes against Catholic Teaching, and that is not “elitism or false assumption.” That is why I trust the Church and Her faithful servants like Fr. Hardon. We must be careful we don’t let “dreams” carry us into dreamland. God Bless, Memaw
 
I think friar Hardon would be more intellectually honest than you are, but then as you say he is more educated and holy then you.

I don’t care to make you think as I do about this subject and I applaud your for your stubborn belief and trust in the learned holy men of the Catholic Church. In actuality we probably agree about issues on dreams more then we would disagree. I think you believe that dreams or discussing them are heretical, lead one astray, or a waist of time. I do not think you prove that with your debate however. You seem more emotional in your arguments then logical.

I have learned a great deal about this subject because of your views and insights and I thank you for being so open and honest. You’ve helped me to really question my thoughts on the matter.

Since neither of us or even friar Hardon are the sole holders of all the knowledge of god or his holy church let’s trust in our lady and jesus to sort this issue out.

Someone mentioned a passage from a book about don bosco about a demon encouraging dreams and the passage from sirach. I was not familiar with the former reference (but was awaire of this particular issue) but was of the latter.

Like fr hardon states, a true mystic is a holy person. And I suspect even a mystic does not have all the understanding of revealed truth. Take for example Mary Agredas version of the fall of the angels and Anne Catherine Emmerichs. One is more descriptive and scientific then the other but they are both identical. These two women would match Friar Hardon’s definition of a holy mystic, yet both say they have great difficulty explaining what hey perceived because of the limitations of our and their human nature.

99.99% of the people I have met do not know how to interpret dreams and offer insightful, wise, or beneficial council. That alone would make me suspect of anyone discussing this topic.

So for my part I will continue to ardently persevere to be radically holy and obedient to the Roman Catholic Church, because this please God.

And I will bring this subject to spiritual learned men of the church and listen to what they say, as I have carefully listened to you memaw.

I apologize for being so wordy.

Bk
 
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