Two thoughts on hell from Bishop Barron

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From his book, Catholicism, p 256-7;

“It has even been proposed that heaven and hell are the same “place”, but inhabited by people of entirely opposite dispositions.”

“…though we must accept the possibility of hell (due to the play between divine love and human freedom), we are not committed doctrinally to saying anyone is actually “in” such a place. We can’t see fully to the depths of anyone’s heart; only God can. Accordingly we can’t declare with utter certitude that anyone - even Judas, even Hitler - has chosen definitely to lock the door against the divine love. Indeed, since the liturgy compels us to pray for all of the dead, and since the law of prayer is the law of belief, we must hold out at least the hope that all people will be saved. Furthermore since Christ went to the very limits of godforsakeness in order to establish solidarity even with those who are furthest from grace, we may, as Hans Urs von Balthasar insisted, reasonably hope that all will find salvation. Again, this has nothing to do with our perfectibility; it has to do with God’s amazing grace.”
 
Sounds good to me, a novice when it comes to soteriology
 
Sounds fine to hold out such hope.

An error would be teaching that nobody could be in hell.
 
I’m confused. Don’t we know that people will be in Hell, but we don’t know who?
 
Bishop Barron must mean we cannot declare that a specific person is in hell, which is true.

What we can and aught to declare is that there are people in hell. Jesus talks about hell much, and he wouldn’t have talked about it if it were to be empty. Also, if we believe not a single person is in hell then that is dangerous to our own salvation, since we would presume that we could not possibly go there.
 
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I’ve always found it interesting that the Church has been given to declare certain people in heaven, but has not been given to declare any person in hell.
 
CapitalistCatholic said:
I’m confused. Don’t we know that people will be in Hell, but we don’t know who?
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Yes you are correct. Saying that no one is hell, or that hell is empty, is heresy. But I don’t think that is what Bishop Barron is saying. When he says, “we are not committed doctrinally to saying anyone is actually “in” such a place…” I think when he says “anyone”, he really means “any specific person”, not “there might be no one in hell.” We know that there are people in hell - it is stated in the scriptures, for one thing. Logically, the Catholic faith would mean nothing if no one could ever go to hell. So many aspects of our faith would be meaningless. Why pray for the dead? Why pray at all if everyone is going to heaven anyway? Why have mass? Why give to the poor? Etc., etc. The whole premise that “hell is empty” can be refuted with even the most basic logic and theology.

But again I don’t think that is what Bishop Baron is saying here, I think he was just pastorally trying to articulate that anyone can be saved, not necessarily that everyone will be saved.
 
Weserthy said:
Yes you are correct. Saying that no one is hell, or that hell is empty, is heresy
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Why? Obviously we know that it is not empty because of fallen angels, but why telling that there is no man in hell is heretic?
Weserthy said:
We know that there are people in hell - it is stated in the scriptures, for one thing.
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Where it is in the scriptures?
 
Weserthy said:
Yes you are correct. Saying that no one is hell, or that hell is empty, is heresy.
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I think this is overstating it. While it’s true that presuming to know that Hell is empty is probably erroneous, it seems clear that the reverse is true as well—how could a Catholic claim to have knowledge that there are (or will be) human souls in hell? The threat seems real enough—no one spoke of Gehenna more than Christ. But claiming to know either way appears entirely wrongheaded.
Weserthy said:
But again I don’t think that is what Bishop Baron is saying here, I think he was just pastorally trying to articulate that anyone can be saved, not necessarily that everyone will be saved.
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It’s good of you to give the bishop such a charitable interpretation, but no, he explicitly aligns himself with the Balthasarian position—to hope and pray for and work for the salvation of ALL. He most definitely does not believe that we can know that there are or ever will be human souls in Hell, and he definitely thinks the salvation of all is a real possibility.
 
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You ask: Why pray for the dead? Why have Mass? Why give to the poor?
I think this is a poor argument. Even if all are ultimately saved (and I’m not saying that’s the case), we know there are various degrees of glory in heaven according to our individual merits. Furthermore, all of those actions, particularly the Mass, could be the means by which Christ does accomplish the salvation of far more than we ever imagined. I don’t think the bishop, or Balthasar, are saying that everyone is saved as a matter of course… but looking at all the vehicles of Grace, including the Mass and our own good works, let’s hope for the salvation of all.
 
It’s all over Jesus’s words in almost every Gospel. Jesus would not have warned against something that wouldnt happen since He is omnipotent.
Or do you think Jesus was mistaken?
 
Yes, the Lord talked about hell a lot, and yes, I think we can end up there even easier than we usually think, but it has nothing to do with stating that any men has to be there for sure.

As for all warnings: If you are telling your kids not to put forks into power outlets - and doing so you are portraying how painful this is - you are trying to prevent this fate for all of them (and hopefully you will succeed). And you will do the same even if none of your kids actually got electrocuted.
 
Right but Jesus knows a little more than you or I. Universal salvation is s theological ridiculous position for a Christian. Jesus warned against hell. Not because he didn’t want us to stick a fork in an outlet but because He was in the unique position to A. Be God, and B. Die for us. If everyone goes to heaven that was sure a needless thing…
I’ll tell you this. If people are not in hell, then I dont want any part of an unjust heaven… so, where would I go?
 
We can get to heaven only because of his death and Resurrection, so even if everybody finally gets to heaven this won’t change - they are there only because of Jesus sacrifice.

I don’t understand your point. It seems that for you everybody can be in heaven only because God says: “Ok, let’s open doors, nor rules! All welcome!” this position is indeed ridiculous. However the statement is different: “We are not excluding option that God is able to lead any person, somehow to a state in which this person will be able and willing to enter communion with him.”
 
I’m sorry, do you hold that every person that ever lived repented before death from sin? Do you think that is a logical theology?
 
Hoosier-Daddy said:
I’ll tell you this. If people are not in hell, then I dont want any part of an unjust heaven… so, where would I go?
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I heard one theologian saying “Our eternal fate may be decided when in the gates of heaven we will see not Peter but Judas”. Thus yes, one of the options of non-empty hell is version where it is filled with “decent men” who do not want to accept fact that Hitler in the split second after pulling the trigger somehow managed to make act of contrition and now they will have to share bench with him in heaven.
 
I am not stating that it is for sure. I am just saying that it cannot be totally neglected.

I agree that stating that it is sure is big error, but why hope that it may be the case is so outrageous for you?
 
Jesus says of Judas that it would be better if he were never born. Now how could that be possible if he were in heaven?
 
It was but an example - I am not stating that Judas is in heaven, even if he avoided eternal damnation, probably he will spend all the time till the end days in purgatory.
However, stating that he is for sure damned is against church teaching.
 
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