Two thoughts on hell from Bishop Barron

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CelticWarlord said:
Accordingly we can’t declare with utter certitude that anyone - even Judas,
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Lots of people say this. And I agree, but only half-heartedly. What else could Jesus have meant when he said “better for you to have not been born”? I don’t think that’s a good description of heaven.
 
Sounds venial, so if you enter heaven, you will have repented. That’s part of what purgatory is all about. God doesn’t stop working on us just because we happen to die (unless of course we rejected him before death).
 
chessnerd321 said:
What else could Jesus have meant when he said “better for you to have not been born”?
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We’ll have to ask Bishop Barron about this one. 🙂

But I will say that I sympathize completely with Judas’ plight. He only did what he was supposed to do. Jesus, supposedly, had to suffer and die to fulfill this plan, so why condemn the catalyst toward that?
 
CelticWarlord said:
But I will say that I sympathize completely with Judas’ plight. He only did what he was supposed to do. Jesus, supposedly, had to suffer and die to fulfill this plan, so why condemn the catalyst toward that?
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God gives us free will, to choose Him or not to choose Him. Judas made choices just as we make choices. Our choices have consequences here and in eternity. Judas apparently made other choices that were not in line with the Ten Commandments that reveal to us a little about his character: John 12:6 - Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein

Peter also made wrong choices but he did repent, picked up his cross and followed Christ. Judas did not.
 
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chessnerd321 said:
What else could Jesus have meant when he said “better for you to have not been born”? I don’t think that’s a good description of heaven.
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Interesting that he doesn’t say “conceived”. Perhaps it could be said of all of us that it would have been better if we had died in innocence rather than having sinned against God, even though we can be forgiven for those sins.
 
snarflemike said:
Interesting that he doesn’t say “conceived”.
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I don’t think the Greek word makes a distinction. The same word is used for conception, for example in the passage “do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”
 
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Genesis315 said:
There is a logic to the possibility of all being saved–God does offer all the means of salvation and (antecedently) desires all to be saved. Therefore it is certainly possible for all to be saved. Likewise, the Church is missionary in order to seek to save each and every soul.

However, we also have the predictive words of Christ, such as “Many are called, few are chosen”, etc. In other words, not all who are called (and, in fact, all are called) are chosen.
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It think that there is logic in saying each person COULD be saved. But we cannot say All are saved or even all COULD be saved. Because, Jesus and scripture goes directly against that . God has indeed offered each soul salvation. And He wills it. But he also is quite clear that many will not be saved and many have not been saved.

Something that is always lost in these debates is the fact that NO ONE is owed salvation. No one is owed heaven. And because of that, some will not be in heaven. That is not evil, it isn’t even sad… It just is. God created us in His image and He loves us. God could have created robots that said “I love you” back to Him or programmed us to obey His every loving wish. But he didn’t, and because “love” is a choice that we make with regards to God, we can and do populate Hell, because God loves us and desires our love so much that he makes it a free choice. When evil reigns in our hearts, be it Hitler, A murderous abusive priest, or even just you or I rejecting God’s commands in our own life, Justice awaits, because of love. Forgiveness awaits because of Mercy. But repentance is required. Repentance is not an easy choice to make, just look at the many many characters typed on these boards justifying sin and arguing with God and His Church…

In defense of Von B. and the Bishop, sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees in matters of philosophy and theology and sometimes we just can’t get out of our own way…
 
I certainly am not knowledgeable enough to provide a cohesive answer to that point. I would highlight free will like other posters.

Also, I think it’s not necessarily true that the only way for Jesus to save us was the cross. God doesn’t will sin, so he must’ve had some other plan in mind. Even though he foreknew what would happen… confusing stuff.

When I had this conversation with my pastor he pointed out that in some ways Jesus’ existence is already at least partway efficacious to our salvation. Jesus even in taking on human nature had begun to bridge the gap between man and God. He already had the authority to forgive sinners for example.
 
While I think that’s a possible interpretation, I find it weak when looking at a broader context. The whole verse is:
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.
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Matthew 26:24 (NIV)

I find it narrow to interpret that as a general statement about all of humanity having been better off not sinning in the first place. And while that’s certainly a possibility, I don’t know if that’s necessarily what God desires in the first place. Human free will is seemingly very important to God. If that’s the case it seems better to freely choose God than to die as a baby and be with God.

AND it’s not even church teaching that children who die before the age of reason go to heaven.
 
Just to add to the conversation, does not every person who sins betray the Son of Man? Not a statement, just a question.

And while it is true that those who are -unbaptized- and die before the age of reason are not known to heaven, I can still imagine that those who have never sinned against God are in some sense more esteemed than those who have, even if both may gain heaven.
 
I am going to repost something written by @Rabbi. I took a screenshot of it for keepsake.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

No matter what Scripture proof-texts one uses to argue that “it is certain that some persons go to Hell”, I am convinced of this:

No one in their right mind would ever propose that everlasting torment is a just form of punishment if he were not first already beholden to the idea that it is “a divinely revealed fact” that some persons are damned to Hell.

In other words, I firmly believe that if it were not for the fact that some people sincerely believe that there are people in Hell/going to Hell, those believers would not have ever come to the view that eternal torment is a defensible and just punishment for a finite offense.

And this is significant to me,
because while “matters of faith cannot be proven by reason”, Catholics also believe that “faith does not contradict reason”.

So, if absent Divine Revelation (or one’s interpretation thereof), the idea of punitive, everlasting torment is repugnant to the rational mind, then…

Believing that there are people in Hell does not - in and of itself - change this natural repugnance. What it does have the power to do is resign a person to the threat of Hell such that he says to himself “Regardless of what I think about the justice of Hell, it exists”.

In other words, it can resign a believer in the same way that it can resign the citizen of a society to the reality of the criminal justice system and its consequences (regardless of whether that citizen is in agreement with the decisions and policies of that system).

But let’s not confuse defending the existence of something with proving its justice. And I think those two issues get conflated in discussions about Hell.
 
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So my only thought in that post from the Rabbi, it is not what God will do to us if we do not let Him in but what we are choosing if we do not let Him in.
 
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chessnerd321 said:
I certainly am not knowledgeable enough to provide a cohesive answer to that point
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Join the club, my friend. 🙂 I couldn’t count the number of times I’ve posted a thought or an inspiration, only to say to myself after, "Oh man, how am I going to explain/defend this one?" lol

But there is great enjoyment in having the discussion. My favorite atheist, Penn Jillette, who was raised in a very conservative church-going home, likes to say that “as long as people are talking they’re far less likely to come to blows”. I’ve enjoyed reading all the contributions on this topic, and thank you for yours. I think I’ve exhausted everything I had to say on this but will undoubtedly think of something tremendously profound while quaffing tonight’s beer. LOL
 
I do not understand what you’re getting at, but if it’s about the belief of hell, again, we Jews don’t subscribe to it.
 
snarflemike said:
Just to add to the conversation, does not every person who sins betray the Son of Man? Not a statement, just a question.
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I suppose, technically yes. But again the context is clear. I mean if it were literally better for everyone to have not been born, then God created a sub-par world. God doesn’t make mistakes. So it makes more sense that in Judas’ circumstances he’d be better off not born. But not necessarily anyone else.
 
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