Two Wedding Ceremonies?

[pensmama87]

A Muslim/Catholic marriage is ill advised. A Mulsim man is required to raise his children in the Muslim faith, but a Catholic is required to raise their children in the Catholic faith. This is a recipe for disaster. In many countries, bishops do not give dispensation from disparity of cult for Catholics wanting to marry Muslims, particularly Catholic women marrying Muslim men.

I agree. I have no idea how they are planning on working this out. He is a very nice man, but I don’t see how this works unless one of them converts. Unfortunately, with how it’s gone so far, I think it’s far more likely that she would end up converting to Islam instead of him to Christianity.

Likewise, Muslims are wary of Muslim women marrying Muslim men, because Islam requires the husband to allow a Christian wife to practice her religion herself, while they do not believe that Christians are so bound. Whether or not that is true, someone who practices either faith seriously will face many trials if they try to raise a family with someone who believes their religion is false in any degree.

How do you pass on your religion when the two of you each thing the other practices a religion that is at least partly false? Neither religion is naïve about how difficult this situation is, and both fully realize how much less likely it is that the children will be taught religion without a relativistic taint.

Did you mean “Christian men” in your first sentence?

I don’t know how seriously either of them practice their faith, but her family has certainly capitulated more to his already as far as planning goes, I think out of a desire to not be offensive or seen as racist. She is mixed-race and race was a huge issue when her parents got married, even though both were Catholic. Even though they attend church regularly, religion seems to be regarded as more a part of culture. Of course, I am an outsider peering in so I can’t say for sure.

I have no idea what my role, if any, in all of this should be. My husband (who is the bride-to-be’s Confirmation sponsor) feels some obligation to her, but also doesn’t want to make things awkward or create family drama.

Urgh.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I know that marrying someone outside of the church means that the marriage is not valid.

Just FYI, there is a difference between a religious and nonreligious wedding. In some countries, separate “weddings” may be required if the country does not recognize the religious wedding.

With regard to Islam, that is likely to be an issue, because a religious ceremony may be required. Being married in a Catholic Church is likely to be frowned upon or prohibited by the muslim spouse.

 

[pensmama87]

Just so everyone is aware, I started my own thread to discuss my particular issue:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=846141

Thanks!

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for your response! That’s what I thought, but I wanted to ask to make sure. For the reception, I would be expected to wear traditional Indian clothing, etc. But I think I am being overly scrupulous lol. I just do not want to do anything wrong. We would be married in the Church, but he wants some of his customs incorporated too. So this is good to know. Thanks

As far as I know, there is nothing in the rubrics of a Catholic wedding that forbid you from wearing whatever clothing in whatever colors you want, provided it is modest, as I am sure that every traditional form of bridal garb has been (with the last 50 years or so excluded). IOW, you can’t change the Catholic liturgy to incorporate Hindu rituals, but you can certainly wear whatever clothes you want. As for what ceremonies you do outside the Catholic liturgy, you cannot exchange vows. Other ceremonies surrounding vows (that are not in violation of the faith in their meaning, of course) would not be in violation of the Church law against having two marriage ceremonies.

You might ask how this issue is handled in India, where there are not a few Catholics. I’m guessing that what little customs you observe at your wedding pales in comparison to having procured a promise from the groom that the children are to be raised Catholic.

You really need to talk to a priest about these things, including all of the stresses you’ve been through in the last year or so. You are probably not a good candidate to be thinking in terms of marriage right now. Let your life calm down first, then think about a courtship leading to marriage. Marriages between people who are unhappy living with their parents are too often entered into rashly, and you are young enough to wait awhile. Find yourself a serene living situation, and only then think about who you might marry. You could save yourself and those around you a world of hurt, including your intended spouse.

 

[Xantippe]

EasterJoy said:

“You really need to talk to a priest about these things, including all of the stresses you’ve been through in the last year or so. You are probably not a good candidate to be thinking in terms of marriage right now. Let your life calm down first, then think about a courtship leading to marriage. Marriages between people who are unhappy living with their parents are too often entered into rashly, and you are young enough to wait awhile. Find yourself a serene living situation, and only then think about who you might marry. You could save yourself and those around you a world of hurt, including your intended spouse.”

Yes. I would suggest at least one year of happy, productive, independent living before entering into an engagement, particularly not an engagement with a non-Catholic.

 

[severus68]

Likewise, Muslims are wary of Muslim women marrying Muslim men, because Islam requires the husband to allow a Christian wife to practice her religion herself, while they do not believe that Christians are so bound. Whether or not that is true, someone who practices either faith seriously will face many trials if they try to raise a family with someone who believes their religion is false in any degree.

How do you pass on your religion when the two of you each thing the other practices a religion that is at least partly false? Neither religion is naïve about how difficult this situation is, and both fully realize how much less likely it is that the children will be taught religion without a relativistic taint.

If you mean a Muslim women marrying Christian men, that is not permitted in Islam. It is only permitted the other way around. Some take the position that the Christian woman must be the ‘original’ Christian, that is a Catholic.

I agree that it is very difficult for someone with a strong faith to marry someone of another faith who is also strong in his/her faith. I don’t think it is possible for a practising Catholic woman to marry a practising Muslim man because she will not be able to bring her children up as Christians.
However, I have found marrying Buddhists ( true Buddhism is more of a philosophy of life), Hindus, Sikhs, are much less of a problem.

 

[severus68]

I know that marrying someone outside of the church means that the marriage is not valid. But if that is done (in a Hindu ceremony), can a Catholic marriage follow it to make it valid? I hope I make sense. What I mean is…can a ceremony be conducted simply to follow custom, but then the valid marriage then follow it?

If not, then is it possible to incorporate small Hindu customs into the wedding? Like the flowers around the neck (say, after the wedding is conducted) and the bindi placed on the forehead?

Maybe a Hindu ceremony after obtaining a dispensation with a Church blessing? Ask your priest please. He knows best or will find out,

An alternative, marry in Church and exchange garlands at the dinner - cultural. Again please ask your priest.

 

[EasterJoy]

If you mean a Muslim women marrying Christian men, that is not permitted in Islam. It is only permitted the other way around. Some take the position that the Christian woman must be the ‘original’ Christian, that is a Catholic.

I agree that it is very difficult for someone with a strong faith to marry someone of another faith who is also strong in his/her faith. I don’t think it is possible for a practising Catholic woman to marry a practising Muslim man because she will not be able to bring her children up as Christians.
However, I have found marrying Buddhists ( true Buddhism is more of a philosophy of life), Hindus, Sikhs, are much less of a problem.

“Wary” was too tepid. Yes: It is forbidden for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man, period. The rationale, however, is for the sake of the welfare of the Muslim woman, because she would be at the mercy of her husband’s authority and might not even be allowed to practice Islam herself.

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy said:

“You really need to talk to a priest about these things, including all of the stresses you’ve been through in the last year or so. You are probably not a good candidate to be thinking in terms of marriage right now. Let your life calm down first, then think about a courtship leading to marriage. Marriages between people who are unhappy living with their parents are too often entered into rashly, and you are young enough to wait awhile. Find yourself a serene living situation, and only then think about who you might marry. You could save yourself and those around you a world of hurt, including your intended spouse.”

Yes. I would suggest at least one year of happy, productive, independent living before entering into an engagement, particularly not an engagement with a non-Catholic.

To clarify: If she were in a serene household in which her parents treated her as a fellow adult, it would not be necessary for her to rent a place for herself for a year before thinking about marriage. To live at home is not the same as having been infantilized. To live at home is not to be in perpetual conflict with one parent or the other. If you’ve been living with a happily married couple who see you as a child they have raised to adulthood, and they treat you accordingly and you act accordingly, then continuing to live at home need not be any problem in terms of marriage. The truth is, it used to be the norm, and many good marriages came out of that situation.

 

[lovedance4ever]

As far as I know, there is nothing in the rubrics of a Catholic wedding that forbid you from wearing whatever clothing in whatever colors you want, provided it is modest, as I am sure that every traditional form of bridal garb has been (with the last 50 years or so excluded). IOW, you can’t change the Catholic liturgy to incorporate Hindu rituals, but you can certainly wear whatever clothes you want. As for what ceremonies you do outside the Catholic liturgy, you cannot exchange vows. Other ceremonies surrounding vows (that are not in violation of the faith in their meaning, of course) would not be in violation of the Church law against having two marriage ceremonies.

You might ask how this issue is handled in India, where there are not a few Catholics. I’m guessing that what little customs you observe at your wedding pales in comparison to having procured a promise from the groom that the children are to be raised Catholic.

You really need to talk to a priest about these things, including all of the stresses you’ve been through in the last year or so. You are probably not a good candidate to be thinking in terms of marriage right now. Let your life calm down first, then think about a courtship leading to marriage. Marriages between people who are unhappy living with their parents are too often entered into rashly, and you are young enough to wait awhile. Find yourself a serene living situation, and only then think about who you might marry. You could save yourself and those around you a world of hurt, including your intended spouse.

EasterJoy, thank you so much for not only this thoughtful response, but for all of the other times you have kindly answered my frantic questions. As far as your statement about the “stresses I’ve been through in the last year,” you are absolutely right on. I certainly do not want to rush into anything at this time. My boyfriend and I love each other, but we are planning on waiting 2-3 years for marriage, as we both move forward with our education; each of us will have obtained a master’s degree by 2016, so we would aim for a wedding after that.

While he is having a difficult time understanding the rules of the Church (sometimes he cannot understand why it is so “strict”), he is very patient with me and says, “I would not have entered into a relationship with a Christian girl if I thought it would be a problem for me and my family.” I am very scrupulous when it comes to the Faith (hence all the questions I ask), and he understands that as a Catholic, I have certain duties. He is very loving, kind, and patient with everything, which endears him to me even more.

So there isn’t going to be a wedding in the near future for me, I just wanted to ask for future reference. And I am glad to know that there are ways to incorporate Indian culture into a Catholic marriage without offending Our Lord and His Church.

God bless you, EasterJoy. Thank you again - and thanks to all who have answered!

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy, thank you so much for not only this thoughtful response, but for all of the other times you have kindly answered my frantic questions. As far as your statement about the “stresses I’ve been through in the last year,” you are absolutely right on. I certainly do not want to rush into anything at this time. My boyfriend and I love each other, but we are planning on waiting 2-3 years for marriage, as we both move forward with our education; each of us will have obtained a master’s degree by 2016, so we would aim for a wedding after that.

While he is having a difficult time understanding the rules of the Church (sometimes he cannot understand why it is so “strict”), he is very patient with me and says, “I would not have entered into a relationship with a Christian girl if I thought it would be a problem for me and my family.” I am very scrupulous when it comes to the Faith (hence all the questions I ask), and he understands that as a Catholic, I have certain duties. He is very loving, kind, and patient with everything, which endears him to me even more.

So there isn’t going to be a wedding in the near future for me, I just wanted to ask for future reference. And I am glad to know that there are ways to incorporate Indian culture into a Catholic marriage without offending Our Lord and His Church.

God bless you, EasterJoy. Thank you again - and thanks to all who have answered!

You are wise. Do read up on what “official Islam” has to say about Muslim men marrying Christian women, and then you’ll know what questions to ask your boyfriend and his family about this. The old official stance is that it is a good thing because the wife might convert, and because the husband dictates the religion of the children. That the husband will convert or the children might be baptized is unthinkable. Read up on that and compare with what your husband and his family think before you jump in.

 

[Xantippe]

EasterJoy said:

“Read up on that and compare with what your husband and his family think before you jump in.”

I have the vague impression that marrying into a Hindu family is on average very, very different from marrying into a Muslim family. I have the feeling that Hindus tend toward syncretism, so that they will often happily accept yet another deity to their big, happy family of deities (for instance, I’ve heard a couple times of a statue of Jesus being added to a Hindu temple).

ucanews.com/story-archive/?post_name=/1998/03/13/hindus-christians-pray-before-jesus-statue-in-hindu-temple&post_id=11011

However, the actual exclusivist theological theological content of Christianity is going to be quite alien.

I think that while Muslims are obviously closer theological kin to Christians, they may also be harder to deal with on a practical level, while Hindus are very far away theologically, but at the same time on average easier to deal with.

There’s also a lot of fine print. I read an Indian Christian doctor’s blog about life at a rural mission hospital here

jeevankuruvilla.blogspot.com

and it’s an eye opener. The gender issues are a very big deal, even to the point of life and death. There’s an Indian proverb that goes, “Raising a daughter is like watering your neighbor’s garden,” which means that any effort you put into raising a female child is a waste of money.

globalhealthpolicy.net/?p=366

Obviously the OP’s intended isn’t like those rural Indians who allow women to die when they are having a difficult labor with a female child (C-sections are expensive and most worthwhile for a male child) or won’t bother to obtain blood for her in case a transfusion is needed, but all the same, there are all sorts of gender assumptions that may be lurking in the mind of even the most “Western” and enlightened young man. Of course, that is to some extent true in the US, too–everybody wants equality, right up until it’s time to get up with the baby in the middle of the night.

So, wherever you are, it’s important to watch not just what people say about themselves, but also what they do. For instance, I’m sure that the OP’s intended loves her and is crazy about her and so forth, but has he been brought up to expect that women will jump to wait on him? It would be quite a shock to go from that to being expected to be an equal partner who can clean up after himself and get himself a bowl of Cheerios in the morning. I know a European guy who, when he was a single guy and wanted his dishes done, would invite a European girl from the same country over, knowing that she wouldn’t be able to stand the sight of his dishes and would wash them up immediately.

 

[severus68]

EasterJoy said:

“Read up on that and compare with what your husband and his family think before you jump in.”

I have the vague impression that marrying into a Hindu family is on average very, very different from marrying into a Muslim family. I have the feeling that Hindus tend toward syncretism, so that they will often happily accept yet another deity to their big, happy family of deities (for instance, I’ve heard a couple times of a statue of Jesus being added to a Hindu temple).

ucanews.com/story-archive/?post_name=/1998/03/13/hindus-christians-pray-before-jesus-statue-in-hindu-temple&post_id=11011

However, the actual exclusivist theological theological content of Christianity is going to be quite alien.

I think that while Muslims are obviously closer theological kin to Christians, they may also be harder to deal with on a practical level, while Hindus are very far away theologically, but at the same time on average easier to deal with.

There’s also a lot of fine print. I read an Indian Christian doctor’s blog about life at a rural mission hospital here

jeevankuruvilla.blogspot.com

and it’s an eye opener. The gender issues are a very big deal, even to the point of life and death. There’s an Indian proverb that goes, “Raising a daughter is like watering your neighbor’s garden,” which means that any effort you put into raising a female child is a waste of money.

globalhealthpolicy.net/?p=366

Obviously the OP’s intended isn’t like those rural Indians who allow women to die when they are having a difficult labor with a female child (C-sections are expensive and most worthwhile for a male child) or won’t bother to obtain blood for her in case a transfusion is needed, but all the same, there are all sorts of gender assumptions that may be lurking in the mind of even the most “Western” and enlightened young man. Of course, that is to some extent true in the US, too–everybody wants equality, right up until it’s time to get up with the baby in the middle of the night.

So, wherever you are, it’s important to watch not just what people say about themselves, but also what they do. For instance, I’m sure that the OP’s intended loves her and is crazy about her and so forth, but has he been brought up to expect that women will jump to wait on him? It would be quite a shock to go from that to being expected to be an equal partner who can clean up after himself and get himself a bowl of Cheerios in the morning. I know a European guy who, when he was a single guy and wanted his dishes done, would invite a European girl from the same country over, knowing that she wouldn’t be able to stand the sight of his dishes and would wash them up immediately.

I think you are making assumptions about East Indians which are not quite accurate, certainly not today and not universal. Europeans too, I see.
How about some Catholics who do expect their wives to wait hand and foot on them.

Making statements like the above is not on. When we make negative comments, we should at least get our facts right.

 

[Xantippe]

severus68 said:

“I think you are making assumptions about East Indians which are not quite accurate, certainly not today and not universal. Europeans too, I see.
How about some Catholics who do expect their wives to wait hand and foot on them.”

I wrote:

"Obviously the OP’s intended isn’t like those rural Indians who allow women to die when they are having a difficult labor with a female child (C-sections are expensive and most worthwhile for a male child) or won’t bother to obtain blood for her in case a transfusion is needed, but all the same, there are all sorts of gender assumptions that may be lurking in the mind of even the most “Western” and enlightened young man. Of course, that is to some extent true in the US, too–everybody wants equality, right up until it’s time to get up with the baby in the middle of the night.

“So, wherever you are, it’s important to watch not just what people say about themselves, but also what they do. For instance, I’m sure that the OP’s intended loves her and is crazy about her and so forth, but has he been brought up to expect that women will jump to wait on him? It would be quite a shock to go from that to being expected to be an equal partner who can clean up after himself and get himself a bowl of Cheerios in the morning. I know a European guy who, when he was a single guy and wanted his dishes done, would invite a European girl from the same country over, knowing that she wouldn’t be able to stand the sight of his dishes and would wash them up immediately.”

severus68 said:

“Making statements like the above is not on. When we make negative comments, we should at least get our facts right.”

I don’t see what the problem is. If you read what I wrote again, you’ll see I was pointing out that there is often a considerable difference between people’s stated beliefs and their actual beliefs as revealed in their actual conduct. If a guy has been waited on since birth, it doesn’t matter how enlightened his gender views are–he is going to expect to be waited on by his wife, too, unless he does a lot of work to unlearn that pattern. That gap between theory and practice is true in the English-speaking world and Europe, and doubly true outside. The OP, as being from a very troubled household, is quite likely to jump from the frying pan right into the fire, relationship-wise, so I don’t think that is at all out of place to urge her not to take her intended at face value.

Easter Joy suggested upthread that it wasn’t a bad thing for people from healthy families to get married right out of the parental home. Practically speaking, it is very expensive for a young person to support a household alone, but I think that if it’s at all possible, it is a very valuable experience to live by oneself and support oneself between childhood and marriage. For instance, I think it’s very valuable for a young person to discover that household chores have not in fact been done by elves and to learn about the relationship between income and outgo. Somebody has been doing all those chores and paying the water bill all these years, and they haven’t moved into your studio apartment with you. I think it’s a particularly good idea for young men (or young women) who have been babied at home to have that experience. That way, instead of feeling letdown about the fact that in your marital home, you have to do stuff (waaah!), you can experience the joyous discovery of how great it is to have a spouse to split the chores with. Also, it’s useful intelligence to be able to have a look at a prospective spouse’s bachelor or single gal housekeeping.

 

[severus68]

severus68 said:

“I think you are making assumptions about East Indians which are not quite accurate, certainly not today and not universal. Europeans too, I see.
How about some Catholics who do expect their wives to wait hand and foot on them.”

I wrote:

"Obviously the OP’s intended isn’t like those rural Indians who allow women to die when they are having a difficult labor with a female child (C-sections are expensive and most worthwhile for a male child) or won’t bother to obtain blood for her in case a transfusion is needed, but all the same, there are all sorts of gender assumptions that may be lurking in the mind of even the most “Western” and enlightened young man. Of course, that is to some extent true in the US, too–everybody wants equality, right up until it’s time to get up with the baby in the middle of the night.

“So, wherever you are, it’s important to watch not just what people say about themselves, but also what they do. For instance, I’m sure that the OP’s intended loves her and is crazy about her and so forth, but has he been brought up to expect that women will jump to wait on him? It would be quite a shock to go from that to being expected to be an equal partner who can clean up after himself and get himself a bowl of Cheerios in the morning. I know a European guy who, when he was a single guy and wanted his dishes done, would invite a European girl from the same country over, knowing that she wouldn’t be able to stand the sight of his dishes and would wash them up immediately.”

severus68 said:

“Making statements like the above is not on. When we make negative comments, we should at least get our facts right.”

I don’t see what the problem is. If you read what I wrote again, you’ll see I was pointing out that there is often a considerable difference between people’s stated beliefs and their actual beliefs as revealed in their actual conduct. If a guy has been waited on since birth, it doesn’t matter how enlightened his gender views are–he is going to expect to be waited on by his wife, too, unless he does a lot of work to unlearn that pattern. That gap between theory and practice is true in the English-speaking world and Europe, and doubly true outside. The OP, as being from a very troubled household, is quite likely to jump from the frying pan right into the fire, relationship-wise, so I don’t think that is at all out of place to urge her not to take her intended at face value.

Easter Joy suggested upthread that it wasn’t a bad thing for people from healthy families to get married right out of the parental home. Practically speaking, it is very expensive for a young person to support a household alone, but I think that if it’s at all possible, it is a very valuable experience to live by oneself and support oneself between childhood and marriage. For instance, I think it’s very valuable for a young person to discover that household chores have not in fact been done by elves and to learn about the relationship between income and outgo. Somebody has been doing all those chores and paying the water bill all these years, and they haven’t moved into your studio apartment with you. I think it’s a particularly good idea for young men (or young women) who have been babied at home to have that experience. That way, instead of feeling letdown about the fact that in your marital home, you have to do stuff (waaah!), you can experience the joyous discovery of how great it is to have a spouse to split the chores with. Also, it’s useful intelligence to be able to have a look at a prospective spouse’s bachelor or single gal housekeeping.

You are making assumptions about all Indian men.

On your comments re Easter Joy, I think its an American thing to push children out of the house when they are 18. I do agree with you about children learning responsibility.
If children are given chores and taught that money does not grow from trees from young, they will have been given a good foundation for independent life. Not everyone has been babied at home. In today’s economy, it is difficult for one person, new in the job market, to afford to live alone. There are cultures where men and women live with the extended family until they marry. Some choose to add on to the extended family when they marry. There are so many advantages. Maybe, it was not in the past, today it is a choice.

 

[Xantippe]

severus68:

“You are making assumptions about all Indian men.”

No, I’m not. If you read what I wrote, you’ll see that I am pointing out areas for investigation, rather than making blanket assumptions.

“On your comments re Easter Joy, I think its an American thing to push children out of the house when they are 18.”

Not really. American parents are legally responsible for children only up to 18, but it’s not actually that common to kick kids out at 18. That is a tradition that has been widespread in blue collar American culture, but it’s also true that many blue collar American families are multi-generational. In more middle class American culture, it’s typical to support children at least until they have graduated from college (so, around 22). (But if one goes away to college, then one might leave around 18 and then just go back home for Christmas and summer break, so there is often an intermediate stage of quasi-independence during the college years.) And unfortunately, times being as they are, there are a lot of adult children living with their parents in the US who wish that they could leave.

“I do agree with you about children learning responsibility. If children are given chores and taught that money does not grow from trees from young, they will have been given a good foundation for independent life. Not everyone has been babied at home.”

No, but it’s hard to tell who has and who hasn’t if you can’t see them living on their own.

I personally would have told you very truthfully that I wasn’t babied as a teenager, and yet it was a very different experience to live on my own than it was to live with my parents, even when I had very heavy home responsibilities (my mom had cancer my last year in high school and I’m the oldest of three children). There’s a difference between having chores (even lots of chores) and having the sort of global responsibilities that come with having total responsibility for a place of your own and all home expenses. I’m really glad that I had nearly three years on my own before getting married, and I’m even happier that my husband (who is Eastern European-born) had about two years.

I’ve often noticed how adult children seem to regress in the presence of their parents. They can be mature and sophisticated and responsible, and yet they often seem to turn back into babies around their parents. Because of that phenomenon, I think it is healthy for adult children to have some space and as many opportunities as possible to develop away from their parents. (I will try to remember this when the time comes for our kids!)

“In today’s economy, it is difficult for one person, new in the job market, to afford to live alone.”

That’s very true–I’m speaking of my ideal.