typology and Judaism of today

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jim_Baur
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Valke2 said:
There’s no relation between the tree of life and the Messiah, that I can think of. There may be some Jewish midrash on this or you could make an interesting analogy and I’d love to hear it.

The battles are both, I believe. Certainly the uniting of the entire Jewish people will require both. We believe the Messiah will usher in a era of world peace, in that there will be no wars.
As for what his attributes will be, I’ll give you the standard list, which can be found on various Jewish websites:
  1. He must be Jewish. (Deu. 17:15)
  2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah. (Gen. 49:10)
  3. He must be a direct descendant of King David and Solomon. ( 2 Samuel 7:12-13 – Jews believe that since Joseph is not the father of Jesus, his geneology is irrelevant)
  4. He must gather the Jews from exile and restore them to Israel (Isaiah 11:12) Israel, by the way, can easily hold 15 million.
  5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ez. Chapt. 37). This requirement however, may be fullfilled either by us doing it to usher in the messainac age, the Messiah doing it, or the Temple actually descending from Heaven. Opinions on this differ within Judiasm and were addressed in another thread.
  6. He will rule at a time of world wide peace (Micha 4:3)
  7. All the jewish people will observe the commandments (Ezk 37:24).
  8. All the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve one God. (Isaiah 66:23)
Click to expand...
To Me, Jesus has fulfilled these requirements.
 
Greetings to all! I always enjoy a debate between a Jew and a Christian.
Valke2 said:
There is not much in the Gospels that, from a jewish perspective, would lead us to conclude Jesus was the Messiah. None of the miracles he is said to have done would prove it. His apparent capitulation to Roman authority would be contrary to what the Jews were/are looking for in a Messiah, which is, among other things, a military leader.

Certainly crucifixion and resurrection were not signs of the Messiah that Jews were looking for. As far as the “what if Jesus was the Messiah” question, I can’t really answer that, except to say that we believe if he was the Messiah, he would have heralded in a Messainic age, that would have included having the Jews gathered back to Israel, the whole world worshipping the One God, the rebuilding of the Temple, and some other things. So I guess, as a Jew, I would say that if Jesus were the Messiah, then our scripture was wrong.
Click to expand...
Hi Valke2

I have a question which I would like to know the answer to. How do the Jews interpret Isaiah chapter 53?

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Greetings to all! I always enjoy a debate between a Jew and a Christian.

Hi Valke2

I have a question which I would like to know the answer to. How do the Jews interpret Isaiah chapter 53?

zerinus
Click to expand...
Also Psalm 22 would be helpful?
 
Okay, clearly the about 14 million Jews in the world could fit within the about 1000 km of desert that makes up Israel. But it would get crowded. Either way, it’s completely improbable even under the most extreme circumstances, especially in light of the Church.

Besides that, if you believe that the messiah is going to usher in an age in which all people will know G-d, you must be willing to concede that if Judaism is correct than at least the extreme majority of the world is going to want to convert to Judaism. Are THEY all going to move to Israel too?

Valke2, I would especially like to hear your response about the Jewish notion that the Messiah precedes the World to Come. Why, if the Messiah is going to usher in a new age of world peace, would G-d then destroy the Earth and THEN rebuild it?
 
zerinus said:
Greetings to all! I always enjoy a debate between a Jew and a Christian.

Hi Valke2

I have a question which I would like to know the answer to. How do the Jews interpret Isaiah chapter 53?

zerinus
Click to expand...
It depends. From pre - Christian sources (Rabbi Akiba) through the Judaism of the First Millenium (ex., in the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel) , the subject of Isaiah 53 is the holy one, the messiah, who was to suffer. Later rabbis such as Rashi took a more anti-Christian view, and saw the ‘suffering servant’ in Isaiah 53 to be Israel, who because of her innocence takes on suffering from other nations.

Here’s an interesting paper on the subject: www.lcje.net/papers/2003/bartelt.doc
 
Valke2 said:
I don’t speak for all Jews. But a belief that Jesus fulfilled Adam or anyone else is fundmentally contrary to Judaism.
Click to expand...
Valke - Reading only the Gospels would give you an incomplete picture of Christianity. Acts of the Apostles and Paul’s letters, particulary Hebrews, make the case that Jesus was the Messiah and how He fulfilled the prophecies.

Not trying to convert you, but if you are truly interested in engaging Catholics in an ongoing debate over the case for Jesus as the Messiah, it would be best if you were fully informed.
 
Jim_Baur said:
Concerning this question, might you give your biblical reflections, thank you. I asked it earlier this month. I did not get an answer from any other person. Please forgive the Christian context, I asked it to Catholic Christians.

St. Augustine and some of the Greek Fathers believed that “'echad” could be understood to mean “one” day and not the “first” day.

I cannot recall that being taught of the other days, that is, “sheniy,” “shaliyshiy,” “rabi’iy,” “chamiyshiy,” and “shishshiy” (two thorugh six).

However, it seems to be implied in St. Augustine’s Literal Meaning of Genesis. I do not know if I remember correctly or not.

My question: Is it correct in the creation accounts of Genesis to see One, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth in place of the First Day, the Second Day, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? St. Augustine seems to say that it all happened at once but is explain in parts or steps to us.

Can a scholar help clear up my understanding?

Thank you!

Sorry, it is difficult to for me to phrase my questions.

Be forgive my transliteration, I do not know how to do such a thing. I copied it the best that I could.
Click to expand...
According to Rashi (possibly one of the greatest rabbis of Jewish history) :‘Scripture uses the cardinal number, echad, one day, instead of the ordinal number, rishon, first day, to indicate that on this day God was one (this phrase can be rendered The day of the One and Only). On this day, God was still the only spiritual being in existence, for the angels were not created until the second day.’

Something else to consider here is that neither the moon nor the sun were created until the fourth day, so it’s hard to tell what is meant exactly by yom (day).
 
vernet1 said:
Okay, clearly the about 14 million Jews in the world could fit within the about 1000 km of desert that makes up Israel. But it would get crowded. Either way, it’s completely improbable even under the most extreme circumstances, especially in light of the Church.

Besides that, if you believe that the messiah is going to usher in an age in which all people will know G-d, you must be willing to concede that if Judaism is correct than at least the extreme majority of the world is going to want to convert to Judaism. Are THEY all going to move to Israel too?

Valke2, I would especially like to hear your response about the Jewish notion that the Messiah precedes the World to Come. Why, if the Messiah is going to usher in a new age of world peace, would G-d then destroy the Earth and THEN rebuild it?
Click to expand...
We do not believe that the world will convert to Judaism. There is a big difference between converting to Judaism and worshipping and acknowleding one God… Where in Jewish text do you read that God will destroy the earth and then rebuild it as part of the Messianic Age?
 
vernet1 said:
It depends. From pre - Christian sources (Rabbi Akiba) through the Judaism of the First Millenium (ex., in the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel) , the subject of Isaiah 53 is the holy one, the messiah, who was to suffer. Later rabbis such as Rashi took a more anti-Christian view, and saw the ‘suffering servant’ in Isaiah 53 to be Israel, who because of her innocence takes on suffering from other nations.

Here’s an interesting paper on the subject: www.lcje.net/papers/2003/bartelt.doc
Click to expand...
Show me where Rabbi Akiba viewed Isaiah 53 as referring to a suffering messiah? I don’t believe that is correct. That is a gross misrepresentation, actually.
In 1876 an Edward Pusey wrote words to this affect in his introduction to The “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpretations (trans. Driver and Neubauer, [reprinted] New York: Hermon Press, 1969) He was wrong.

In fact a Christian source provides otherwise.
In Contra Celsum, written in 248 C.E. (approx. 800 years before Rashi),
The Church Father Origen records that Jews contemporary with him interpreted this passage as referring to the entire nation of Israel -not the Messiah!

Read - "Origen, Contra Celsum, trans. Henry Chadwick, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, Book 1.55, 1965, p. 50)
 
Shalom (Peace) Everyone,

I can’t help but realize that much of Jewish expectation for a soon to be coming Messiah is similar to Islamic ideals with Muhammad (pbuh) and the legend of the Mahdi.

Is there any common ground shared between Islam and Judaism with these ideas?

Thank you.

Shalom. 😛
 
Jim_Baur said:
When Messiah appears and before the time great peace, do you expect a great war?
Click to expand...
Within Judaism there is an idea of 2 messiahs: messiah ben Joseph and messiah ben David.

Messiah ben Joseph is supposed to fall, slain in battle against Gog and Magog. He is the political and military messiah. After he is slain, messiah ben David defeats Gog and Magog, and reconciles Israel with their Lord, ushering in a new era of world peace.

Christians essentially agree with this. After Jesus was slain, he rose, and defeated death. At the time of the second coming, he will crush Satan once and for all, ushering in world peace.
 
JimO said:
Valke - Reading only the Gospels would give you an incomplete picture of Christianity. Acts of the Apostles and Paul’s letters, particulary Hebrews, make the case that Jesus was the Messiah and how He fulfilled the prophecies.

Not trying to convert you, but if you are truly interested in engaging Catholics in an ongoing debate over the case for Jesus as the Messiah, it would be best if you were fully informed.
Click to expand...
Believe me. I don’t claim to have a complete view of christanity. And I don’t really want to debate the qualifications of the Messiah or why I don’t believe Jesus met them. However, while I have not read all the soruce material, I’ve read a fair amount of commentary on the source material. Enough to be able to hold a conversation.
 
vernet1 said:
Within Judaism there is an idea of 2 messiahs: messiah ben Joseph and messiah ben David.

Messiah ben Joseph is supposed to fall, slain in battle against Gog and Magog. He is the political and military messiah. After he is slain, messiah ben David defeats Gog and Magog, and reconciles Israel with their Lord, ushering in a new era of world peace.

Christians essentially agree with this. After Jesus was slain, he rose, and defeated death. At the time of the second coming, he will crush Satan once and for all, ushering in world peace.
Click to expand...
Messia ben Joseph is a very minor character in the world of Judiasm, and his appearance is not actually required.
 
Regarding Isaiah 53, I’ll give a detailed answer later. This is a discussion that I’ve had numerous times with christians. And it is one that has been answered by those who are much more knowledgable than myself.
 
Valke2 said:
We do not believe that the world will convert to Judaism. There is a big difference between converting to Judaism and worshipping and acknowleding one God… Where in Jewish text do you read that God will destroy the earth and then rebuild it as part of the Messianic Age?
Click to expand...
Judaism, like Christianity, is not sola scriputura. The idea of the Olam haBa (the World to Come), is accepted as basic Jewish belief, although not stated in scripture. One great book that explains the concept extensively is the Derech HaShem, written in the 17th century by the great Rabbi Chaim Luzzato (I think that’s how it’s spelled).

If you believe that Jews enjoy the closest relationship w/ G-d, you will become Jewish. I don’t see how you can get around this.
 
Valke2

I want to thank you for your insights and comments. I find this board to fast and wild. I will stay in the Scripture board or thread.

Once again, peace and blessings!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top