U.S. Bishops lost their authority?

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may_they_be_one

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Agree or Disagree:

The Church via its Bishops/Priests has lost its position of spiritual authority among most Baptized “Roman Catholics” in the U.S. And, the best option to reestablish authority and restart the process to bring these non-practicing Catholics to saving faith in the Good News is to forgo a focus on Magisterial/Traditional authority and instead, turn primarily to Scriptures as their platform of authority to proclaim the Good News and lead the Church.

Background for this assumption:

From the sex abuse scandal, to the lack of explanation/enforcement (from the average parish pulpit) of the decree on birth control, to the lack of teaching on the reasons for the definition of marriage, the Churches spiritual leaders in America have lost credibility in the eyes of most Baptized Catholics. They can no longer expect to be believed by the majority of U.S. Catholics when speaking on theological, moral or spiritual truths.

The VAST MAJORITY of Catholics in the U.S. don’t adhere to the Church’s decree on birth control. The MAJORITY of Catholics in the U.S. didn’t vote for life in 2012 election.

The MAJORITY of Catholics don’t go to Mass every week, don’t go to confession annually, and in fact, don’t even believe in the ability to have a relationship with the God of the Universe (as documented in Forming Intentional Disciples by Sherry Weddell).

So, why should Bishops/Priests expect most U.S. Catholics to believe in the Gospel and the teaching authority of the Church?

The only remaining position of authority that remains for the MAJORITY of U.S. Catholics (knowing that the majority of Baptized Catholics are non-practicing) is the Bible. Scripture’s accuracy and authority is PROVEN through archeology/anthropology.

Our Bishops/Priests must study it, read it, teach from it, and preach from it, if they hope to regain a position of authority in the lives of the majority of Baptized U.S. Catholics. Only then will the fallen away Baptized Roman Catholics begin to return to saving faith in the Church.
 
may_they_be_one said:
Agree or Disagree:

The Church via its Bishops/Priests has lost its position of spiritual authority among most Baptized “Roman Catholics” in the U.S.
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Disagree. The only one who can make that statement is the Pope. The Bishops collectively are here to teach us teachings of the Church on faith and morals. While some of them individually may fall into sin (like everyone else), or come up with their own interpretation as an individual, it’s not like they can make up new teachings of the Church.
 
I would have to mostly disagree. While I do believe the Catholics should get more into Sacred Scripture and the CCC, I cannot see how your argument would give the Church in the US more authority.
 
may_they_be_one said:
So, why should Bishops/Priests expect most U.S. Catholics to believe in the Gospel and the teaching authority of the Church?

The only remaining position of authority that remains for the MAJORITY of U.S. Catholics (knowing that the majority of Baptized Catholics are non-practicing) is the Bible. Scripture’s accuracy and authority is PROVEN through archeology/anthropology.

Our Bishops/Priests must study it, read it, teach from it, and preach from it, if they hope to regain a position of authority in the lives of the majority of Baptized U.S. Catholics. Only then will the fallen away Baptized Roman Catholics begin to return to saving faith in the Church.
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Where did the Bible come from? Sure the Old Testament was put together by the Jews. But the New Testament was put together by the Catholic Church. Out of many writtings, the Catholic Church decided what was to be put in and kept out of the Catholic Bible. And in the Gospels, Jesus himself said that there was too much information to just be put in writing. There is more to the Church than what was in the Bible. That’s why we have Canon, the Catechism, Encyclicals, the Didache, etc. Catholics are not Scripture Only. And it’s the job of our Church’s teachers to bring it all to us so we can know it and understand it.

The majority of Baptized Roman Catholics live as they want to live…because they can. They’re not forced to conform to the rules of the Church. You can’t blame it all on the Bishops. I agree that the teachings aren’t made known to the laity as much as it should. But I can see loud and clear that what teachings are brought to them, the majority reject. The Bishops can’t make people to conform to the Church’s teachings. The most they can do is bring those teachings to the laity and help them understand them, and encourage them to conform to them. That still doesn’t change the role of authority the US Bishops have.
 
I would also like to add that if any authority has been lost, which I believe it has not, it is mostly due to people give more authority to society than God and Church.
 
aidanbradypop said:
I would also like to add that if any authority has been lost, which I believe it has not, it is mostly due to people give more authority to society than God and Church.
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You’re talking about two different kinds of authority. The Bishops have authority, given to them by the Church. But people, OTOH, may not recognize that authority, which doesn’t make it very authoritative outside of its context. One can’t argue that the US Bishops are in a position of authority in the Church for US Catholics. A Jewish person would not recognize any authority the Bishops have over them. Neither would a Muslim person. A non-Catholic Christian doesn’t either. And there’s nothing to compell a non-compliant Catholic to recognize this authority over him/herself. Being Catholic is a choice. One chooses to be a subject of the Church’s authority. God wouldn’t have it any other way…otherwise we wouldn’t have free will.
 
Disagree…the Bishop’s authority is from the Holy Spirit…only he can revoke or change it. The simple answer for Catholics is obedience to the Magisterium…the Pope and Bishops in communion with him. As long as the bishop of the our Local Church is in communion with the Pope…he is the Holy Spirit’s visible Shepard of our souls. We owe our obedience and loyalty to him…he is our communion link with the One…Holy…Catholic…Apostolic Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Watering down or ignoring the Magisterial teachings of the Church–the fullness of Truth–for non practicing Catholics to be enticed back to the “pews”…to practicing their faith… is most uncharitable to them…to us who practice the faith…and most importantly an act of infidelity to the Lord Jesus Christ. the “watered” down version of the Catholic Faith is what got us into the mess we are in now…just look at the distortions that were dumped into the true Vatican II counsel’s actual words…60’s…70’s…until JP-II arrived on the scene…1978.

I understand what you see…and are trying to do…and clearly see the problem you are trying to solve…but your presumption that the Bishops/pastors/priests have lost their authority is misguided…they have not lost their ** authoritative** Teaching position (big difference)…for handing on the deposit of faith–teaching the faith that was handed down by the Twelve.

I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is standing by idly watching…he has a plan and it is His responsibility to the fix this “problem”…all we are called to do is be faithful to Christ’s Church–the Pope and its Magisterial teachings–and preach the Gospel 24/7…never using words unless absolutely necessary. A specific calling for us is always…prayers (especially the Rosary)… fasting…almsgiving. bottom line: obedience and fidelity.

I used to think practicing the Catholic Faith was like sitting in an easy chair in a cozy comfortable den…now I realize its more like walking across the Grand Canyon on a 2 x 6 plank of wood stretching from one side to the other.
A bit uncomfortable…disconcerting…and tumultuous…but always with a life-saving “safety net”…The Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pax Christi
 
The Authority of the Church is derived through Christ and the Holy Ghost and handed on via Sacred Tradition, the Magesterium and Scripture. They all serve a purpose and cannot be taken away without diminishing the strength of the Church.

I agree that our priest could use the pulpit to clarify Church teachings, but the odd thing is most of the “Catholics” who disagree with various tenets never bother to ask “Why?” as in, “why does the Church teach that?”. Even if it doesn’t come from the pulpit directly, there are so many wonderful resources at our disposal not to mention that we are allowed to directly ask our priests outside of Mass. There is no real excuse anymore for Catholics to get better educated on our faith.

The past sins (no matter how great) of some of the clergy do not justify us from denying any part of the truth that Christ entrusted in his bride, the Church. Just remember, bad popes, bishops, priests, nuns and LAY people have come and gone, but the Word of God has NEVER changed. And we can only know the true meaning of the Word of God thanks to the Magesterium, Tradition and Scripture.
 
It is a ridiculous proposition. The authority that God give to anyone, at any time in history, never depended on any degree of sanctity, amount of education or personal talent. This whole concept smacks of anticatholic rhetoric. This should be moved to the Apologetics forum where first things are explored, like the role of the Holy Spirit and the Church.
 
“They have destroyed your altars, they have slain your prophets with the sword; and I [Elijah] alone am left …] And the Lord said to him: …] I will leave me seven thousand men in Israel, whose knees have not been bowed before Baal.” 1 Kings 19:14-18
 
pnewton said:
It is a ridiculous proposition. The authority that God give to anyone, at any time in history, never depended on any degree of sanctity, amount of education or personal talent. This whole concept smacks of anticatholic rhetoric.
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  1. I am Roman Catholic, I’m doing my best to follow the Church’s teachings, and I agree. Some of it sounds ridiculous. Yet, here we stand 50 years post-Vatican II (20 years into the new evangelization), with the American Church in shambles.
  2. If you haven’t read Forming Intentional Disciples, you probably won’t understand what I’m getting at. I should have prefaced that in the OP. Very briefly, among many other things, our Bishops/Priests/leaders are operating under a false assumption that the huge number of fallen away 18-35 year olds will come back once they have kids. The research is showing that they’re not.
  3. I am not saying there is no longer authority in the Magisterial teaching. I am saying that the LACK of Scriptural teaching is what’s wrong, and it is what should now be emphasized in a PRIMARY role (NOT SINGULAR role).
  4. We should seriously consider why so much of our best lay teaching on the faith is coming from converts to the faith who’ve had strong Biblical knowledge prior to converting (e.g., Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Patrick Madrid, Alex Jones, et al).
  5. (This IS a thread dealing with evangelization.)
  6. The authority given to Bishops/Priests is derived FIRST from the Word (OT then NT). If we didn’t have the OT Scriptures, how would anyone know who Jesus was, or what prophesies He fulfilled? Jesus time after time used Scripture to prove His Authority to the Jewish “chosen ones”.
  7. As Jesus stated: would He not be able to raise up rocks to replace the “chosen ones” who fell away from the truth (yet who were supposed to be under a covenant from God)? I think we improperly use the idea that our ordained leaders are beyond reproach or correction because of their position… We are warned by Scripture to be careful lest we fall away from believing and living the truth and loose our inheritance. Read the Chapters 11 and 12 of Book of Hebrews.
If the lay believer is warned to be so careful about how we live and obey Christ, how much more carefully should our full-time leaders be living?
rstegeman… I agree that our priest could use the pulpit to clarify Church teachings, but the odd thing is most of the “Catholics” who disagree with various tenets never bother to ask “Why?” as in, “why does the Church teach that?”. Even if it doesn’t come from the pulpit directly, there are so many wonderful resources at our disposal not to mention that we are allowed to directly ask our priests outside of Mass. There is no real excuse anymore for Catholics to get better educated on our faith.
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With the cacophony of mistruths, deceptions and lies perpetrated on all fronts, including from many ordained in the Church, I am desperately hoping that the Church would have a different attitude than this.
Lancer… Watering down or ignoring the Magisterial teachings of the Church–the fullness of Truth–for non practicing Catholics to be enticed back to the “pews”…to practicing their faith… is most uncharitable to them…to us who practice the faith…and most importantly an act of infidelity to the Lord Jesus Christ. the “watered” down version of the Catholic Faith is what got us into the mess we are in now
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I am not proposing this. Since the beginning of the Church, understanding Scriptural truth and preaching the Good News is what brought and still brings non-believers to Christ. What follows, when done well, is faith and obedience in the rest of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

This is my experience, and considering the stories of many converts/reverts I’ve heard and read about, is the experience of MANY other faithful Catholics.

Peace in Christ!
 
may_they_be_one said:
  1. The authority given to Bishops/Priests is derived FIRST from the Word (OT then NT).!
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FYI, the Word isn’t a what, it’s a WHO (John 1:1). Neither the OT nor the NT were ‘made flesh’

So I agree that the authority of the bishops comes from The Word, but not in the way that you are claiming.

As to written Scripture, your premise would clearly be false, as the Episcopy existed BEFORE any evangelist put pen to papyrus. So that means the NT cannot be the source of authority for the Bishops. So do you claim that the Order of Bishops was created by, or under, the Old Testament. If so, what verse can you offer?
 
The beatings will continue until morale improves. The authority of the magisterium worked in a world where there was little education and poor communication. Today there are more advanced degrees among nuns than among bishops, and news media report not only misdeeds, but also bad judjment. The Holy Spirit is a powerful source of authority, underpinned by a command of tradition. Contemporary Americans are not satisfied with “because I said so” as a reason to accept a teaching. We want to understand. We demand that teachings make sense. We have sufficient access to scripture to get a sense of what is consistent with the teaching of Jesus. The bishops’ authority will grow to the degree that their teaching is relevant and logical, and represents the compassion of Christ, which is needed more in our world than obedience to ecclesiastical authority.
 
It seems that there has been a major resurgence in the focus on the Bible in recent years, which I believe will continue. Frankly, I would like to see a similar resurgence in the focus on the Fathers of the Church. In my opinion, more of an effort could be made to place the teachings (the Catechism, Papal Encyclicals, etc.) of the Church into the context of both the Bible and the Early Fathers. Armed with the truth of Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition, preachers can more effectively evangelize and teach the Faith.
 
Brendan said:
FYI, the Word isn’t a what, it’s a WHO (John 1:1). Neither the OT nor the NT were ‘made flesh’

As to written Scripture, your premise would clearly be false, as the Episcopy existed BEFORE any evangelist put pen to papyrus. So that means the NT cannot be the source of authority for the Bishops. So do you claim that the Order of Bishops was created by, or under, the Old Testament. If so, what verse can you offer?
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I agree that the Word is Christ (“a who”, i.e., flesh), but you’ve misrepresented/misunderstood the whole idea of the breathed Word of God (“a what”, i.e., power). The Word and God’s Word…I AM THAT I AM… are in communion with each other (see #4 below).

Examples of this authority derived from the WORD of God, as taught by the Church:
  1. MAGISTERIUM: The Mass is the HIGHEST form of worship (two liturgies woven into one), where we praise the Word that comes from God, breathed by the Holy Spirit, in the LITURGY of the WORD… we proclaim Alleluia in worship of the WORD. And in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the Holy, Holy, Holy, words of consecration, etc are a recitation of the Word. THE WHO AND THE WHAT ARE INSEPARABLE….
Vatican II, DEI VERBUM, CHAPTER V, paragraph 17:
The word of God, which is the power of God for the salvation of all who believe (see Rom. 1:16), is set forth and shows its power in a most excellent way in the writings of the New Testament.

CHAPTER VI, paragraph 21:
The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God’s word and of Christ’s body. She has always maintained them, and continues to do so, together with sacred tradition, as the supreme rule of faith, since, as inspired by God and committed once and for all to writing, they impart the word of God Himself without change, and make the voice of the Holy Spirit resound in the words of the prophets and Apostles. Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them; and the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life. Consequently these words are perfectly applicable to Sacred Scripture: “For the word of God is living and active” (Heb. 4:12) and “it has power to build you up and give you your heritage among all those who are sanctified” (Acts 20:32; see 1 Thess. 2:13).
  1. ADDITIONAL SCRIPTURE: “Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God” (Matt 4:4)
“It is not I that live but Christ that lives in me” (Gal 2:20) St. Paul’s written words are spoken by the WORD living in him.

“And God SAID, ‘Let there be light…let us make man in our image’” (Gen 1). God’s WORD, the third person of the Holy Trinity, created us… through God’s SPOKEN WORD, who SPEAKS through the Holy Spirit, in the Holy Scriptures.
  1. THE CREED backs up the words of Genesis: “I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ… Through him all things were made.”
  2. POPE BENEDICT XVI (June 28, 2008, Opening of the Year of St. Paul): “From St. Paul we draw a very important lesson: what counts is to place Jesus Christ at the center of our lives, so that our identity is marked essentially by the encounter, by communion with Christ and His Word." AGAIN, WE ARE NOT TO SEPARATE CHRIST FROM HIS WORD…
Do we also not recite the Word when we bring every new believer into the Body of Christ? “I baptize you in the name of the Father…” (Matt 28:19) AGAIN, THE ACTIVITY OF THE WORD IS NEVER SEPARATED FROM HIS WORD…
  1. TRADITION: Paul’s letters constitute the oldest written documents of the New Testament which predate the Gospels. When Paul preached the Good News, he didn’t have the written gospels before him to preach from. In other words, he didn’t have a completed Bible. In essence you see in Paul the Tradition of the Church at work because he preached from that Tradition. (Maronite Monks of Adoration, Most Holy Trinity Monastery, October 2008 Newsletter)
Your idea that “the Episcopy existed BEFORE any evangelist put pen to papyrus” has no relevance in the eyes of the Church. The Church isn’t concerned with timing. It isn’t the ink on paper that we refer to as the Word.

It is the Word spoken by the Holy Spirit, through Christ, through the Father, working through the Apostles, and through every believer who professes the truth. So, yes, if the Bishops are in Christ, then their authority IS from the Word of God. There SHOULD BE no separation between Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium

Thus, every believer, especially our Bishops/Priests, MUST take the time to read the Word in its inked form and truly understand the miraculous gift that it is, and allow it to show us the power of God for our salvation.
 
may_they_be_one said:
  1. I am Roman Catholic, I’m doing my best to follow the Church’s teachings, and I agree. Some of it sounds ridiculous. Yet, here we stand 50 years post-Vatican II (20 years into the new evangelization), with the American Church in shambles. …This is my experience,
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Perhaps this is the diffence. Maybe there are shambles where you live and your experience is reflected in that locality.
 
RevDon said:
The bishops’ authority will grow to the degree that their teaching is relevant and logical, and represents the compassion of Christ, which is needed more in our world than obedience to ecclesiastical authority.
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I would say rather that an error in the begining is an error indeed. I realized long ago that one of the first questions that must be resolved is that of authority. In this, one can not accept because I said so, as it is circular logic. However, if one uderstands the nature of the ministry of Jesus, of which the greatest amount of time according to the information in the Gospels, was spent in formation of those who were to be the pillars of the Church, with the greatest amount of recorded time being spent with Peter.

Accepting any authority, even Scripture should never be done blindly. The question must always be first answered, “why?” Why does one accept the Bible, the Church, the Bishop, one’s preacher? But if one is rooted in an understanding of authority, it is not necessary to way every thing said. Sure, if something resonates as wrong, or one can not agree on the face, it is not problem delving into it.

Consider this example, before we get into a question everything mode? Should Abraham have refused God when asked to sacrifice Isaac? This is estatblished authority asking something that truly was crazy.

Oh, and beatings? C’mon, man. The one thing the Catholic Church is not known for is rough discipline.
 
Oh, and beatings? C’mon, man. The one thing the Catholic Church is not known for is rough discipline.

Love the sarcasm. Tell that to victims of the Inquisition, theologians like Boff.
As long as the Church says that there are ANY subjects that CANNOT be discussed Americans (and perhaps Catholics from other developed nations) will scoff at the authority of bishops and any others who gag conversation.
 
RevDon said:
Love the sarcasm. .
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I do not think you know what that word means. There is no use of sarcasm in my post. The United States was not around during the Inquisition. I could go on about how misinformed your reference was, but that needs to be addressed in another forum. Yes, I think your statement about beatings is nothing but pure anitcathlic falsehood worthy of Jack Chick, not this place.
 
pnewton said:
Consider this example, before we get into a question everything mode? Should Abraham have refused God when asked to sacrifice Isaac? This is estatblished authority asking something that truly was crazy.

Oh, and beatings? C’mon, man. The one thing the Catholic Church is not known for is rough discipline.
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Actually, I interpret that Abraham story in this context: Abraham lived among pagans who regularly practiced child sacrifice. He believed that this was a good thing, so, believing this would be pleasing to God, he toddled Isaac off to the mountain, carrying along kindling, just as his neighbors would. He didn’t question the morality or the spirituality of killing his son. God stopped him from going through with it, and henceforth child sacrifice was seen as a no-no among those who followed the Lord.

And the beatings…tell that to those who suffered the Inquisition. Tell that to theologians of our day who have been silenced or excommunicated.

I contend that a conversation that allows the exploration of any issues so that there is the full opportunity for the voice of the Spirit to speak to the Faithful (and the Spirit is in all the Faithful)
is necessary. A gag is a resort to power to squelch potential truth. In resorting to that power, the magisterium at all levels are denying the power of the Holy Spirit
 
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