U.S. Catholicism: Decline and Fall

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I very much agree with Ed’s post above. A Catholic, in general, is either mostly obedient to Church teachings, or mostly disobedient. And it can be very difficult for a Catholic who sincerely wants to adhere to all that the Church requires of us, when the secular world is in direct opposition to these requirements (Church teachings), and believes them to be antiquated.

I agree, too, that the Church is sometimes thought of as a political organization or institution. But it is neither, since (as was mentioned), it is not man-made.
Rather, it was established by Christ Himself, in order to teach, govern, sanctify, and pass down all that He taught. It’s unfortunte that there are Catholics who believe that the Church can be negotiated with. For instance, women who want to be ordained as priests will devote their entire lives to trying to change the Church, in order to have women ordained. But they will be wasting their life, since women cannot ever be ordained. It’s one of the things that Pope john Paul ll infallibly declared.

Still, I also have great hope, faith, and trust in the Church, even though there are Catholics who are disobedient. We have Our Lord’s guarantee that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
 
Lamentabili said:
Cincinnati and the Decline of Catholicism

Leon J. Podles :: Dialogue
December 26th, 2009

podles.org/dialogue/cincinnati-and-the-decline-of-catholicism-271.htm

1982
2009

Priests
882
482

Parishes
256
220

Seminarians
89
28

Catholic school students
38,531
30,212

Catholic population
506,000
476,189

Catholic marriages
4,427
2,112

This is the table for the Cincinnati Inquirer that shows the state of the Catholic Church in 1982 when he became the archbishop of Cincinnati and as it is today when he leaves it.

snip
Click to expand...
It is not accurate to look at one place (Cincinnati in this case) and make general statements about the decline of the Catholic Church. It does not take into account population movement, for one thing.

I live in Texas, and we are constantly building new churches and expanding existing Catholic churches, partly because of the migration
of so many northern Catholics to our state. The same goes throughout much of the south, the sun belt.

(I too am from the north.)

My son’s 8th grade teacher, a born and bred Texan, asked everybody to stand up. Then she asked all those who are not Catholic to sit. Over half the class remained standing. She was shocked. She said when she was a little girl, there would be either nobody standing or only one or two.

(The largest religious denomination in Texas is now Catholicism.)

Down here, both the economy and the churches seem vibrant and very much alive.

God bless you.
 
Sorry, I disagree with you on all levels or your argument. You assume the cultural changes re: sexuality, drug use, authority were somehow “caused” by elements in the Church. As someone else has indicated on this thread blaming the church or even persons in the church for the sex-drug-rebelliousness is absurd.

Whether you like it or not - or frankly whether ANYONE - likes it or not there is this thing in American society called freedom of speech. Throughout American history what this has meant at any given time has been the subject of fierce debate. And I would agree with you that it can be abused - just like any form of freedom can be abused. That doesn’t mean this “freedom” is simply going to disappear. That’s the reality of our situation whether one likes it or not.

Thinking that somehow all one has to do is “go back” to some romanticized “Golden Age” isn’t going to work.

One can only go forward teaching others to think critically. No more childishness about blind obedience. Catholics must be taught to think and evaluate. Teaching only obedience without providing the foundation and critical faculties to evaluate is not the way forward. Nor will it bring about the changes you (and I agree with you on some level) call for.

The complex world of the 21st century calls for thoughtful responses - not blind obedience.

Your argument also assumes some clear nexus between church-state. That’s what got the church into trouble in Europe - by affiliating to closely with any state. Christianity from the beginning has had a love-hate relationship with the state. Only when the church compromised itself in the 4th century and became deeply linked with the state did problems really arise.
 
Read “Secularity and the Gospel” please…I have nothing more to add to this thread.
 
tpw said:
Sorry, I disagree with you on all levels or your argument. You assume the cultural changes re: sexuality, drug use, authority were somehow “caused” by elements in the Church. As someone else has indicated on this thread blaming the church or even persons in the church for the sex-drug-rebelliousness is absurd.

Whether you like it or not - or frankly whether ANYONE - likes it or not there is this thing in American society called freedom of speech. Throughout American history what this has meant at any given time has been the subject of fierce debate. And I would agree with you that it can be abused - just like any form of freedom can be abused. That doesn’t mean this “freedom” is simply going to disappear. That’s the reality of our situation whether one likes it or not.

Thinking that somehow all one has to do is “go back” to some romanticized “Golden Age” isn’t going to work.

One can only go forward teaching others to think critically. No more childishness about blind obedience. Catholics must be taught to think and evaluate. Teaching only obedience without providing the foundation and critical faculties to evaluate is not the way forward. Nor will it bring about the changes you (and I agree with you on some level) call for.

The complex world of the 21st century calls for thoughtful responses - not blind obedience.

Your argument also assumes some clear nexus between church-state. That’s what got the church into trouble in Europe - by affiliating to closely with any state. Christianity from the beginning has had a love-hate relationship with the state. Only when the church compromised itself in the 4th century and became deeply linked with the state did problems really arise.
Click to expand...
The world today is no more complex than it was 50 years ago. Human nature has not changed.

God bless,
Ed
 
I think people make a mistake weighing their personal opinions as having more value than the teachings of the Church. I now think that all the ‘new ideas’ we think we’re having now were discovered and either rejected or accepted hundreds of years ago e.g. sorcery in the form of ‘new-age’ religions is making a big comeback.

Layman’s rough history of heresy:

Pre-Gutenburg: Only those who could read and had access to libraries could be heretics;
Post-Gutenburg: Only those who could go to college could be heretics;
Post-internet: Anyone can be a heretic.

The common phrase: “I don’t believe that God would punish me for * [insert the thing the speaker wants to do here]*”
 
The rise of Internet Opinion Culture has made some people less smart, less willing to do their own research (dude, I’d look it up for you but I’m too lazy to do it - actual quote), and too gullible. “My buddy tryp78456 said it’s true so it’s gotta be true.”

And let’s not forget people’s 2700 + “friends” on Facebook who they’ll never meet in person. Actual quote - “Do you actually know any of these people?” No. “Then how can they be your friends?”

Things worth doing - hard. Things not worth doing - easy. Avoid easy at all times.

God bless,
Ed
 
Layman said:
I think people make a mistake weighing their personal opinions as having more value than the teachings of the Church. I now think that all the ‘new ideas’ we think we’re having now were discovered and either rejected or accepted hundreds of years ago e.g. sorcery in the form of ‘new-age’ religions is making a big comeback.

Layman’s rough history of heresy:

Pre-Gutenburg: Only those who could read and had access to libraries could be heretics;
Post-Gutenburg: Only those who could go to college could be heretics;
Post-internet: Anyone can be a heretic.

The common phrase: “I don’t believe that God would punish me for * [insert the thing the speaker wants to do here]*”
Click to expand...
Anyone can “be a heretic” but that smacks of mediocrity. I want to be the best heretic I can be!😃
 
Ive read about 4 or so of the best books on the decline of Catholicism after Vatican II to try and understand why I and my family and your family got washed away out of Catholicism by the culture. One book stood out head and shoulders above the rest.

The Decline and Fall of the Catholic Church in America
by David Carlin

amazon.com/Decline-Fall-Catholic-Church-America/dp/1928832792

I can’t say enough good things about this book.
Read it, its the only book you’ll need to understand this both for America and Western Culture.
 
A.Pelliccio said:
WYD troubles me - I am 23- during the reign of the Venerable John Paul II, the events overall feelings were not very traditional or orthodox.
Click to expand...
They may not have been “traditional” with a small “t” (he was the pope that started WYD), but how were they not orthodox?
 
beehumble said:
My son’s 8th grade teacher, a born and bred Texan, asked everybody to stand up. Then she asked all those who are not Catholic to sit. Over half the class remained standing. She was shocked. She said when she was a little girl, there would be either nobody standing or only one or two.

(The largest religious denomination in Texas is now Catholicism.)

Down here, both the economy and the churches seem vibrant and very much alive.
Click to expand...
That is very true. I’m a Texan, with family who fought under Sam Houston at San Jacinto and took part in the government of the Republic (I mention that because we’re taught to be proud of that and talk about it even when other people aren’t particularly interested:D). I grew up in a small town, with an even smaller settlement of Irish located nearby. Our Southern Baptist Church was the largest in town and pretty much was IT. There were a few Catholics in our school (from Irish Ridge, which latter became Talty) and we looked at them like they were exotic fish. Now, even in North Texas, you can’t swing a cat without hitting a Catholic. I was thrilled when Cardinal DiNardo was elevated (Lord, I think even the Church of Christers and the Holy Rollers are proud that Texas got a cardinal!).
 
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