UGCC vs Antiochian Orthodox Church

[bkovacs]

I went to the Divine Liturgy this morning at Presentation of Our Lord UGCC in Lansdale PA. And as far as an active parish. I’m not to sure. There was as before, not to many parishioners present. No choir, only a few ladies and a couple of guys singing, couldn’t recognize the form of chant, if you get my drift. No incense, no altar servers. Hasn’t been any altar servers in several weeks. For such a beautiful church it’s sad. I cannot for the life of me, see how they can continue to make it. As for making money, I believe this the main focus of their website. presentationukrainiancc.com/ Even on the front sign with the church’s name, both sides are covered with bingo advertisements. The Antiochian Orthodox Church (St Phillip’s) up the road is way more vibrant and active. They seem to be more into worshiping God, and teaching the faith than making money and fund raisers. They even have a nice size liturgical library , with all kinds of materials on the Byzantine Christian way of life. Fund raisers are fine, as long as they complement everything else. Unfortunately the priest at Presentation has to take care of two parishes. And he told me that not to many were in the seminary. When I went to St. Phillip’s for Vespers, it seems like there is always some seminarian coming to visit the parish. What is it that these Ukrainian Catholics are doing wrong?. For me this is frustrating as someone who is still technically Roman Rite wanting to learn the Byzantine rite!. I want to be part of a parish that expresses their faith fully in the Byzantine tradition, no latinizations or complacency what so ever and every time I seem to see way more activity going on in the local Orthodox churches than the Eastern Catholic Churches. St Elias in Brampton Ontario is surely an exception to the rule, when it comes to an Eastern Catholic Church. I guess I may have to become a catechumen if I want to be a parishioner of a Byzantine Christian Church and learn the Byzantine Christian faith.

Another thing to ponder. Check out.
ukrarcheparchy.us/index.php?categoryid=61

There is not a single link that teaches anything about the Byzantine Catholic Faith on this UGCC of Philadelphia web page.
Real good “Catechetical Materials” for a Byzantine Catholic. Only if your of the mainstream Roman Rite.
I like the last link.
faithguides.com/.

 

[trophybearer]

I went to the Divine Liturgy this morning at Presentation of Our Lord UGCC in Lansdale PA. And as far as an active parish. I’m not to sure. There was as before, not to many parishioners present. No choir, only a few ladies and a couple of guys singing, couldn’t recognize the form of chant, if you get my drift. No incense, no altar servers. Hasn’t been any altar servers in several weeks. For such a beautiful church it’s sad. I cannot for the life of me, see how they can continue to make it. As for making money, I believe this the main focus of their website. presentationukrainiancc.com/ Even on the front sign with the church’s name, both sides are covered with bingo advertisements. The Antiochian Orthodox Church (St Phillip’s) up the road is way more vibrant and active. They seem to be more into worshiping God, and teaching the faith than making money and fund raisers. They even have a nice size liturgical library , with all kinds of materials on the Byzantine Christian way of life. Fund raisers are fine, as long as they complement everything else. Unfortunately the priest at Presentation has to take care of two parishes. And he told me that not to many were in the seminary. When I went to St. Phillip’s for Vespers, it seems like there is always some seminarian coming to visit the parish. What is it that these Ukrainian Catholics are doing wrong?. For me this is frustrating as someone who is still technically Roman Rite wanting to learn the Byzantine rite!. I want to be part of a parish that expresses their faith fully in the Byzantine tradition, no latinizations or complacency what so ever and every time I seem to see way more activity going on in the local Orthodox churches than the Eastern Catholic Churches. St Elias in Brampton Ontario is surely an exception to the rule, when it comes to an Eastern Catholic Church. I guess I may have to become a catechumen if I want to be a parishioner of a Byzantine Christian Church and learn the Byzantine Christian faith.

Another thing to ponder. Check out.
ukrarcheparchy.us/index.php?categoryid=61

There is not a single link that teaches anything about the Byzantine Catholic Faith on this UGCC of Philadelphia web page.
Real good “Catechetical Materials” for a Byzantine Catholic. Only if your of the mainstream Roman Rite.
I like the last link.
faithguides.com/.

Wow! It’s really, truly sad to see this Ukranian Catholic church website. Pierogie sales, kielbasa sales and bingo occupy the first three links. The only link that’s even about The Faith is the very last one- right under “paper recycling”.

 

[KyivAndrew]

A couple of things come to mind.

1/ Demographics: the Second (post WW1) and Third (post WW2) emigrations from Ukraine which built a lot of these parishes in rural or semi-urban locales have seen their kids take off to the cities (i.e. I am from the Greater Toronto Area in Canada, and we still have many churches in the small towns of Ontario, but the young don’t stay in the towns and move on). The fourth emigration from Ukraine (after the collapse of the Soviet Union) flocks to the cities as well. I may be wrong but the wave of immigrants to the U.S. who now attend the Antiochian Churches are probably more recent immigrants than the Ukrainians. Plus, demographically, the eparchy from which St. Elias hails is quite a strong eparchy with many parishes in the Toronto area, and new churches being built in the cities the kids (now adults) have flocked to (i.e. Oakville).

2/ Soviet Repression: This may be strange but after the Ukrainian Catholic Church was liquidated in 1946 by Stalin in the homeland, the North American Ukrainian Catholic community (along with the Ukrainian Orthodox in North America, which church was liquidated by Stalin in the 30s in the homeland) became the standard bearers for the entire Ukrainian Church and the nation’s struggle to free itself from the Soviet Union. Tons, and I mean, tons of man and woman power, study, activity was taken to somehow influence the Cold War and free our Church and its people, as opposed to thinking about planning strictly in terms of North America in the long run and natural “logistical” planning. The idea always was what we do here is ultimately aimed at freeing the Church and people over there. It became a civilizational struggle which many here thought was hopeless in the face of the Soviet Union.

Unlike other immigrations from other countries where the people knew their country was free and independent (i.e. Italians, French, etc.) the Ukrainians were a stateless people in the 20th Century with its nation enduring much suffering. The emigration or diaspora saw its goal as to keep up the struggle for the homeland. That is why when the Iron Curtain collapsed, so much energy went out of the North American community to rebuild the Church in Ukraine from scratch, and the nation. Some of the Church’s brightest minds (i…e., Father Gudziak) and our Archbishops and priests moved there, as did many of its brightest political minds (Kateryna Yushchenko, last President’s wife), to unbury the Church and nation.

There is always one eye on Ukraine. Just recently in my eparchy of Eastern Canada, we had a massive fundraiser for - not building up the church here - but for helping the Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv. To this day, the hierarchy and laity strive to protect the homeland and church from russification or the oligarchs.

In a nutshell, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church here is multitasking: keep us alive here, and make sure the Church comes alive from the catacombs over there. This would be more than enough to ask of a large powerful diaspora, never mind us Ukrainians.

These are just some of the reasons off the top of my head, apart from the generic: well, all Catholics are struggling to keep their religious communities strong and not secularized.

 

[bkovacs]

Quote: These are just some of the reasons off the top of my head, apart from the generic: well, all Catholics are struggling to keep their religious communities strong and not secularized

And the Orthodox are not stuggling the same?. Still no excuse for why the UGCC in Philadelphia is not promoting Byzantine only Christian traditions. It only takes a day or two to change a website.

 

[KyivAndrew]

And the Orthodox are not stuggling the same?. Still no excuse for why the UGCC in Philadelphia is not promoting Byzantine only Christian traditions. It only takes a day or two to change a website.

I maybe did not express myself succinctly enough. I nowhere said the Orthodox were not struggling the same. I expressed what was my experience in Canada. That’s all. If you want to take shots at the UGCC in Phillie, O.K., your prerogative. I have never been to Pennsylvania. Sorry for responding on your thread.

 

[Formosus]

Bkovacs, the simple answer is that parish church is not perfect. Some communities just do not have the vitality that can fuel a vigorous parish like St. Elias’ in Canada. If you look you will find that there are Orthodox churches that are very similar to this UGCC parish. Some parishes are full of life and joyfully promote the Byzantine faith, others are parishes are not. I think it is unfair to blame the entire Archeparchy for this though. As for seminarians, I have met the seminarians for Philly and they are all solid guys strong in the faith.

 

[German_Melkite]

I am only asking - but how much of the decline is a result of being ethnic within a new world setting? I have seen that with the Melkites. First and second generations want a complete Old World experience. They don’t really understand or care about the faith/theology - they care about the home land. The food, the festivals, the social activities all must be as it was in Lebanon (or where ever). The liturgy must retain not just the tradition - but the language and very ethnocentric trappings. Even things like an annual convention really are more designed to be “national gatherings of ethnic dispora” - rather than unifying religious confirmations. By the second or third generations, this attitude can kill a parish.

 

[malphono]

I am only asking - but how much of the decline is a result of being ethnic within a new world setting? I have seen that with the Melkites. First and second generations want a complete Old World experience. They don’t really understand or care about the faith/theology - they care about the home land. The food, the festivals, the social activities all must be as it was in Lebanon (or where ever). The liturgy must retain not just the tradition - but the language and very ethnocentric trappings. Even things like an annual convention really are more designed to be “national gatherings of ethnic dispora” - rather than unifying religious confirmations. By the second or third generations, this attitude can kill a parish.

I’m not sparring for an argument, (nor will I engage in one), but I have to say that I could not possibly disagree more.

 

[gmcbroom]

Regrettably, there is a decline going on and it’s quite wide spread. I’m very fortunate to go to Our Lady’s Maronite Catholic Parish in Austin, Tx. We have a decent population that shows up on Sunday, and even Saturday is good (though its usually done in the chapel). We also have a Bizantine Catholic Mission that meets at our church twice a month. They have small numbers but they hope to grow as we all do. I’m thinking the answer may rest with us though. We are supposed to spread the good word, are we not? The question is how? Advertising? It makes me wonder if perhaps the answer might lie with commercials. Hmmmm…that gives me an idea.