Uhh...Excuse Me, Michelle Arnold...?

[TristanCross]

Michelle Arnold:

Heaven is the immediate presence of God, otherwise known as the Beatific Vision. Because those experiencing the Beatific Vision cannot sin, Christian theologians speculate that the angels were tested before being granted the Beatific Vision. The exact nature of the test is unknown but those who chose God received the Beatific Vision; those who did not entered hell. Satan never experienced the Beatific Vision, and so he was never in heaven in the first place.

Source:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5645393#post5645393

I would love to know where you came up with this. This answer has no Scriptural basis and even contradicts Scripture. Satan is a created being. He has been in God’s presence. In fact, Satan was “created a cherubim, apparently the highest created angel. He became arrogant in his beauty and status and decided he wanted to sit on a throne above that of God (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:15; 1 Timothy 3:6). Satan’s pride led to his fall.” (From GotQuestions)

Ezekiel 28:12-14 ESV
(12) "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
(13) You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
(14) You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

Job 1:6-12 KJV
(6) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
(7) And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
(8) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
(9) Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
(10) Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
(11) But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
(12) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

From what I see, clearly from Scripture; Satan was in heaven and able to see God.

Revelation 12:7 KJV
(7) And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Satan and Michael fought in heaven. Saying Satan never entered heaven would be a blatant lie. I have Catholic books that even tell me that Satan was in heaven. Also, saying things that are speculation as if they are true is just wrong. I don’t know where you came up with your answer…

Ave Christo. God bless.

 

[TamaraSieja]

I don’t know if what I was brought up with is exactly truth but I was taught that Lucifer was cast out of the Lord’s presence before the creation of Man. Heaven didn’t exist yet because there was just God. To my understanding the concept of Heaven and Hell didn’t come around until after Lucifer was cast out. Therefore the devil never has been to Heaven.

Frankly I don’t understand what the arguement is. If the Devil, the absolute iptome of evil, had ever been there, wouldn’t that destroy Heaven as been the place of good?

 

[Langdell]

Uhh…Excuse Me, Michelle Arnold…?

I don’t know if your criticisms are justified or not, but I think you could have found a more charitable way of expressing them, especially considering that Michelle volunteers a lot of her time to make the forum possible.
.

 

[mary_bobo]

I don’t know if your criticisms are justified or not, but I think you could have found a more charitable way of expressing them, especially considering that Michelle volunteers a lot of her time to make the forum possible.
.

So true. A gentleman or lady, as the case my be, would have PM’d Michelle. What a classless thing to do.

 

[Shoshana]

maybe the OP can offer an apology and then the conversation can continue.

 

[Walking_Home]

Maybe the moderator can move this thread over to the Apologetics forum. I believe that would have been the appropriate place for the OP bring up concerns about Michelle Arnold’s post.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

Source:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5645393#post5645393

I would love to know where you came up with this. This answer has no Scriptural basis and even contradicts Scripture. Satan is a created being. He has been in God’s presence. In fact, Satan was “created a cherubim, apparently the highest created angel. He became arrogant in his beauty and status and decided he wanted to sit on a throne above that of God (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:15; 1 Timothy 3:6). Satan’s pride led to his fall.” (From GotQuestions)

From what I see, clearly from Scripture; Satan was in heaven and able to see God.

Satan and Michael fought in heaven. Saying Satan never entered heaven would be a blatant lie. I have Catholic books that even tell me that Satan was in heaven. Also, saying things that are speculation as if they are true is just wrong. I don’t know where you came up with your answer…

Ave Christo. God bless.

Why did you post this on the AAA forum?

 

[Ace86]

Good job TristanCross! People who mislead others publicly (even if unintentional) should be called out on it publicly.

 

[JustaServant]

Starting threads using a poster’s name is against forum rules.

 

[TLM08]

Good job TristanCross! People who mislead others publicly (even if unintentional) should be called out on it publicly.

I agree… However, let’s make sure we are speaking the truth in love. These forums are a great place to have these discussions that otherwise could never happen in public and yet remain civil.

 

[Timothysis]

Michelle Arnold’s answer is completely consistent with Church teachings and the opinions of scholars and theologians. Throwing random bits of scripture passages from different books, written by different authors, in different times and different places for different reasons is hardly “proof” that Miss Arnold is “wrong.” Apparently, you take the Book of Job as a literal, actual story. That is your prerogative, but many scholars who are far wiser than you and I in these matters would hold that Job, like many books in the Old Testament, are not literal stories and seek to portray by symbolic stylings certain divine Truths.

I also think it ironic that you quote “From GotQuestions” as one of your sources, and not the bible itself! In any event, most opinions about the status and place of Satan in creation is based on theological speculation , since there is no clear biblical passage that illuminates the myriad of questions concerning Satan and the fallen angels. I will ask you this, though; if Satan and the fallen angels were ever in the presence of God, who is the ultimate Good and goal of all creation, how do you think they could ever turn their backs on Him?

BTW, your title is, like many of your postings, quite contentious. Perhaps a bit of charity would be a pleasant change of pace…

 

[happilycatholic]

Thank you Michelle. I for one appreciate the clarity on that.

God Bless all that you do for CAF!

HC

 

[Shoshana]

Thank you Michelle. I for one appreciate the clarity on that.

God Bless all that you do for CAF!

HC

 

[TristanCross]

Wow. I can feel so much love from these “catholics”.

I apologize if I came off strong and for the “rude” title. But, I’ll stick to what I said.

Name calling? Really? I didn’t expect to be called “classless”. Well, I wanted to bring this out in the open so others could participate, share their views, and help with this. Maybe I should have messaged her privately. I am a man. According to you, not a “gentleman”. So be it. What’s the opposite of a gentleman? An ungentleman? A piece of garbage? Okay. I’m a piece of garbage. I’m an idiot. I’m a moron. Deal with it. I’m not perfect. Nor do I pretend to be. I don’t put on a “religious” face. I have the guts to be who I am. Jesus said “come as you are”; not “come when you’re perfect”.

Tamara,

The Bible says Heaven. Not just from His presence, but from Heaven:

Revelation 12:7 KJV
(7) And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Walking_Home,

I was going to post it in the Apologetics section, but I didn’t know where to do it.

(name removed by moderator),

So, you make what you want figurative (these passages) and literal (Eucharist)?

JustaServent and mods,

I apologize. But this needs to be addressed. I hate lies, and I call 'em like I see 'em.

Timothysis,

So the Bible is just a stupid story book? Okay. So there was no Jesus? There was no Adam, Eve, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Jacob, Moses, Job, Solomon, Elijah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Haggai, Elisha, Jonah, etc? It’s just a big lie to you? Not to me. Sorry.

So, you can take things from extra-biblical sources that have nothing in common with Scripture and I can’t quote something from a site which teaches from the Bible?

Ah, you’re one of the people monitoring my threads. Yeah, I mess up. I say stupid things. I’m not perfect dude. I’m not Jesus. Like I said, I don’t pretend I’m some perfect gentleman. I’m an imperfect piece of garbage. Sorry that I don’t put on a “religious” face. I am who I am. And God’s working to change me. It’s a process. You should all know about processes considering you believe salvation itself is a process (a near impossible process, at that). So please, stop giving me beef because it’s so tiring. And your really not helping my walk, as I have self-esteem issues. So thank you.

Ave Christo. May God bless you all in Christ’s precious name.

 

[GeorgeSword]

So, you make what you want figurative (these passages) and literal (Eucharist)?

That makes no sense. How can you say that if one passage is literal every passage must be literal?

 

[Timothysis]

Timothysis,

So the Bible is just a stupid story book? Okay. So there was no Jesus? There was no Adam, Eve, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Jacob, Moses, Job, Solomon, Elijah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Haggai, Elisha, Jonah, etc? It’s just a big lie to you? Not to me. Sorry.

I did not say such a thing nor did I convey such a sentiment. If you spent a bit more time learning about such things instead of getting overly emotional and passionate about subjects that you obviously don’t understand, then you might find that you’ll learn a thing or two in the process.

Ah, you’re one of the people monitoring my threads.

This is a public board; I read many threads.

I say stupid things.

Agreed.

I’m an imperfect piece of garbage.

I think you’re going a bit overboard…settle down, man.

 

[rivera01]

What timothysis was just referring to was the book of Job, why overgenerelize the whole bible, when he clearly did not say that? If we were to take the whole bible literally for what it says, and not discern that there are certain areas that it is talking figurativly, then all who are christians would be walking around maimed and eyes gouged, pls see Mat 5:29-30.
And your really not helping my walk:

A far as you having self esteem issues, I am sorry for you having this problem. You have to value yourself more and ask the Lord to help you see how valuable you are in His eyes, because no one else can do this for you. I will pray for you.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Wow. I can feel so much love from these “catholics”.

.

“Catholics”

 

[StillWondering]

I’ll try to look at the three quoted biblical passages and see if there is any conflict here in the thread from my own limited understanding and what is presented.

Hello TC,

On topic:

I’m not sure if the idea you quoted from GotQuestions are also your understanding since it does not quite support the claim from GotQuestions nor says he was in Heaven. Maybe others do, but these were quoted, so I’ll go with what is given.

The first quote you have from Ezekiel sounds like poetry. There is a lot of flowery language and symbolism, from the precious stones, to the holy mountain. I feel it is telling a story more then relating events and facts as they are without the story.

In the second quote from Job, I’m not sure how that supports the claim either. It just says that Satan is arguing with God that these mere mortals, even Job the man with the most trust in God, will shun God once God takes away the physical gifts he has given him.

And in revelations, the instinctive story I hear is that this heaven is all that is above us, i.e. not here on this physical realm that we can see.

So that’s what I got from each quote, and I’m not trying to read into it. It is from my own understanding and experience. The bible has always been a book of context and richness for me and so I must read it as if I am a member of the tribes, the churches, the communities of the time it was written.

An example could be me calling a St. Paul and saying “wassup”. 2000 years from now, someone plays back a cell phone recording and translates as “What is going on with you today?” One reader can hear, “oh no, St. Paul must be sick”. Or another could say “St. Paul must be grouchy”. Or a third would say, “no that is just the slang kids used during that time period and could be translated as either ‘hi’ ‘how are you doing’ or even ‘hey, nice to see you’ without any of the negative possibility of being sick or grouchy.” In that third translation, the context and motivation of speech was taken into account. This gives a very different meaning then the other two translation.

Lastly, none of those quotes seem to directly support the claim made that Satan was ever blessed with God’s full presence.

Off topic:

TC, I remember you were curious about the Catholic faith and had planned to take RCIA starting next month. I noticed your tag now says Christian with nothing more. Are you still going to take RCIA?

If we are fully walking with Christ, it would probably be full of spiritual joy and has no animosity, bitterness, or doubt. As humans we stray momentarily, daily, hourly, yearly, but those moments of pure divine love that does penetrate our own humanly journey should be hints of where to go. Where you are, do you feel that divine love or did you get caught up with humanly love or some other love? I am not trying to presume; asking just in case. Since I ask myself this throughout my life, it would only be fair for me to ask others as well.

As for me, when questions arise either from myself or others, if I have my spiritual radio tuned into God, the answers are clear, forthcoming and full of joyous love. When I choose to jam the signal to do things my own way or even give into a lingering doubt in God, the answers do also come clear and forthcoming, but from a very different source – one that is definitely not full of joyous love.

 

[Little_Dove]

Dear Tristan,
I think the explanation which you seek for Ms. Arnold’s post can be found in Tim’s post #12.
The question being addressed and the subject of the theological speculation to which Ms. Arnold referred is this: After seeing God as He truly is in the Beatific Vision, as we will see Him one day in Heaven, how can any creature then reject Him?
The point is this, it is Catholic doctrine, that after you die and go to heaven and see God as He truly is, there is no possibility of rejecting Him. Therefore, the testing of the angels happened while they were able to interact with God, but not at the same time seeing Him as in the Beatific/Heavenly vision. That Heavenly vision was given only to the angels who chose for God.
God Bless!
To Jesus, through Mary