Uhh...Excuse Me, Michelle Arnold...?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There is no Dogmatic teaching on this so what Michelle said, which she qualifed with “Christian theologians speculate” is perfectly acceptable and in no way dogmatic by itself.

We are free to have our own opinions.

Also, as Catholics we are not Bible only Christians.

 

[GeorgeSword]

So the Bible is just a stupid story book? Okay. So there was no Jesus? There was no Adam, Eve, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Jacob, Moses, Job, Solomon, Elijah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Haggai, Elisha, Jonah, etc? It’s just a big lie to you? Not to me. Sorry.

Ave Christo. May God bless you all in Christ’s precious name.

A literal belief is not the only belief. A literal belief in Jesus, of course, is, but not of every single passage of Scripture. It is like a library, not a single book, and some of the books in the library are written symbolically, others literally. Some are a mix of both. There is no dogma that requires me to accept that Jonah was inside a whale, nor is there one that requires me to accept that he was not. That is a choice I can make on my own. Literal or not, it is often what the stories are trying to say that is important. What does it really matter, if we believe Adam was created from dust, or that he evolved, so long as we give glory to God for it and worship Him, knowing that either way He created us and that we fell from grace, and that salvation lies within Christ? It is foolish to get bogged down in such debates.

 

[TristanCross]

Dear Tristan,
I think the explanation which you seek for Ms. Arnold’s post can be found in Tim’s post #12.
The question being addressed and the subject of the theological speculation to which Ms. Arnold referred is this: After seeing God as He truly is in the Beatific Vision, as we will see Him one day in Heaven, how can any creature then reject Him?
The point is this, it is Catholic doctrine, that after you die and go to heaven and see God as He truly is, there is no possibility of rejecting Him. Therefore, the testing of the angels happened while they were able to interact with God, but not at the same time seeing Him as in the Beatific/Heavenly vision. That Heavenly vision was given only to the angels who chose for God.
God Bless!
To Jesus, through Mary

Thank you for the wonderful answer. About time I got a good answer.

Do you really have to go through Mary? Christ came as a direct way to the Father. We don’t need a mediator/mediatrix between us and Christ. That would be kinda weird. “Oh Hi. I’m here to bring you to the Father. But you can’t come to me unless you go through my mother.” Seems a bit odd…

God bless you all in Christ’s precious name.

 

[Timothysis]

Do you really have to go through Mary? Christ came as a direct way to the Father. We don’t need a mediator/mediatrix between us and Christ. That would be kinda weird. “Oh Hi. I’m here to bring you to the Father. But you can’t come to me unless you go through my mother.” Seems a bit odd…

It was “through Mary” that Christ’s redemption of the world began; it is called the Immaculate Conception. It was “through Mary” that Christ performed His first miracle, even though, as He told her, “my time has not come, yet.” It is in Mary that “my being proclaims the greatness of the lord.” Mary leads us to Christ. How can anyone say they love Christ without having love for Mary? All roads lead to Christ; Mary and the saints point us in the right direction. Why is this so hard for non-Catholics to understand?

 

[TristanCross]

It was “through Mary” that Christ’s redemption of the world began; it is called the Immaculate Conception. It was “through Mary” that Christ performed His first miracle, even though, as He told her, “my time has not come, yet.” It is in Mary that “my being proclaims the greatness of the lord.” Mary leads us to Christ. How can anyone say they love Christ without having love for Mary? All roads lead to Christ; Mary and the saints point us in the right direction. Why is this so hard for non-Catholics to understand?

Don’t say I don’t have love for Mary! I have much love for her and my brethren. I’m just saying, why do I have to go through Mary? I like going directly to Christ. And I don’t like how some Catholics spend more time devoting themselves to Mary than Christ. I’ve seen Catholics who pray more to her than Jesus Himself.

 

[sancte_joseph]

Don’t say I don’t have love for Mary! I have much love for her and my brethren. I’m just saying, why do I have to go through Mary? I like going directly to Christ. And I don’t like how some Catholics spend more time devoting themselves to Mary than Christ. I’ve seen Catholics who pray more to her than Jesus Himself.

I guess you don’t HAVE to… but this world is getting worse… and our lady of fatima (if you believe in the apparation) said that in the end her immaculate heart will triumph…

but putting that aside… I guess you don’t HAVE TO… but you can pray to Christ and ask mary’s intercession… and you say “I’ve seen Catholics who pray more to her than Jesus Himself”

So are you a cloistered monk? i.e. you spend most of your day in prayer speaking to Jesus… and don’t speak to anyone else…???

 

[sancte_joseph]

I guess you don’t HAVE to… but this world is getting worse… and our lady of fatima (if you believe in the apparation) said that in the end her immaculate heart will triumph…

but putting that aside… I guess you don’t HAVE TO… but you can pray to Christ and ask mary’s intercession… and you say “I’ve seen Catholics who pray more to her than Jesus Himself”

So are you a cloistered monk? i.e. you spend most of your day in prayer speaking to Jesus… and don’t speak to anyone else…???

 

[Little_Dove]

Dear Tristan,
Are you familiar with Fr. Corapi? I quote,“You don’t have to go through Mary, it is just smart” I added the smile.
Mary takes all your actions, all of your desires to love and please Jesus and she purifies them, and enhances them so that they receive a merit in the eyes of Her Son that you would not be able to give them by yourself. If you have the Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven and Earth as your guide and to help you in your perilous journey (narrow gate) to Her Son, why not accept Her most loving care for you? If Jesus was so gracious and loving as to give His own mother to us on the cross, He must have known that we could surely benefit greatly from Her guidance, counsel and intercession!
God Bless you!
To Jesus, through Mary

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Thank you for the wonderful answer. About time I got a good answer.

Tristan,

What do you think of Michelle’s post now?

VC

 

[TristanCross]

StillWondering,

RCIA starts later this month

Verbum Caro,

It’s fine

 

[Junebug999]

Excuse me, I realize you’re new, but you should understand Michelle is loved and respected on this website. She is very knowledgeable and very kind. I think your thread belongs on Apologetics as well…and maybe your tone needs more charity.

And on the topic of her being knowledgeable…if you want to take her on apologetics style – my suggestion is that y ou pack a lunch – you’ll be at this a while. Have an open mind and open heart (hopefully the Holy Spirit will help in this regard) and you can learn from her – we all have.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Hi Tristan,

If after WhiteDove’s explanation you better understand Michelle’s answer (and you think its fine), then might I suggest you publicly retract and apologize for the following?

a blatant lie.

saying things that are speculation as if they are true is just wrong.

TristanCross:

I hate lies, and I call 'em like I see 'em.

It looks like you might be calling Michelle a liar in the above quotes. Ought you in Christian charity apologize?

God bless,
VC

 

[thereseozi]

Excuse me, I realize you’re new, but you should understand Michelle is loved and respected on this website. She is very knowledgeable and very kind. I think your thread belongs on Apologetics as well…and maybe your tone needs more charity.

And on the topic of her being knowledgeable…if you want to take her on apologetics style – my suggestion is that you pack a lunch – you’ll be at this a while. Have an open mind and open heart (hopefully the Holy Spirit will help in this regard) and you can learn from her – we all have.

I agree! Reading Michelle’s posts have helped me tremendously!!!

 

[yinekka]

This is not defined dogma of the Church but it is a teaching.

The angels were subjected to a moral testing. They were first in a state of pilgrimage in which they, through their free cooperation, with grace were required to merit the Beatific Vision of God. The bad angels who did not pass the test , fell under the ban of eternal damnation. (2 Peter 2:4; Jud. 6)

Source: *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma *Ludwig Ott 28:2

Even the angels had not the beatific vision of God in all His glory…. Had they had that vision they could not have sinned…. The vision of God as He is in Himself would be impossible to them by their own natural powers. They, as well as human souls, would need a supernatural elevation by grace, and by the intensification of their powers before they could have an immediate sight of God. Just as we know of God’s existence without possessing that vision, so was it also with the angels. The fallen angels, therefore, never have seen God as He really is. Those angels who did not sin received the supernatural vision of God as their inheritance; and for them, therefore, sin is no longer possible.

Source: *Radio Replies *– Frs Rumble and Carty Vol. 3 Question number 598

Michelle Arnold is a great apologist.

 

[NeedImprovement]

***Originally Posted by Michelle Arnold ***
Heaven is the immediate presence of God, otherwise known as the Beatific Vision. Because those experiencing the Beatific Vision cannot sin, Christian theologians speculate that the angels were tested before being granted the Beatific Vision. The exact nature of the test is unknown but those who chose God received the Beatific Vision; those who did not entered hell. Satan never experienced the Beatific Vision, and so he was never in heaven in the first place.

Source:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5645393#post5645393

It might be worth reiterating there was a careful choice of words in that post “Christian theologians speculate”.

So we lean in the same direction as St. Augustine whose view was adopted and defended by Saint Thomas Aquinas :

ewtn.com/library/mary/angel3.htm

"…The exact time of the sanctification of the Angels is not a matter of faith. But Saint Augustine’s opinion on this has become the prevailing one, especially since the time Saint Thomas defended it against some medieval theologians who maintained that the Angels remained for some time in the pure state of nature and were elevated to the supernatural order some time later. Saint Augustine’s opinion has been adopted by the Roman Catechism.

Just like man, the Angels had to undergo a period of probation during which they were free to choose between good and evil. They were not yet confirmed in grace and they did not enjoy the Beatific Vision during this time. This was a period of existence like that of our first parents before their fall, insofar as they were wayfarers, living in faith and hope of those supernal truths and promises that God had revealed to them. During this time the Angels had the great opportunity to merit heaven and eternal life with God, but in the meantime they were exposed to the danger of committing sin and thereby losing God and heaven for all eternity. The Fathers and the theologians are unanimous in admitting a period of probation for the Angels. Gennadius, who disagreed with them, asserted that the Angels were created in a state of grace and glory…"

We weren’t there, so it’s difficult to say how things actually (pardon the pun) went down.

When scripture tells us …

Rev 12:7-9
**And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the
dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which
deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out
with him. **

… I believe it does not necessarily mean their “place” in heaven was ever occupied but rather that they had been intended for heaven while it simultaneously provides a foundation for speculation that the rebellion of the angels was a definitive, eternal act and that they were fully aware of the consequences of the act…no going back.

If we say the angels who fell did enjoy the Beatific vision, it would be inadvertently asserting that God wasn’t omnipotent and all loving. In so saying we would further appear to impose limits on His infinite power, might and majesty.

I’m thankful that we all agree there are such things as angels, satan and sin because their existence is being systematically denied in our world today.

Want to have a little listen to Bishop Fulton Sheen on Angels … including some comic relief ? … youtube.com/watch?v=zaa7I44gkgc&feature=related

 

[StillWondering]

StillWondering,

RCIA starts later this month

Verbum Caro,

It’s fine

Our parish starts RCIA on Tuesday. Enjoy the experience.

Btw, what does Verbum Caro mean?

 

[pnewton]

I would love to know where you came up with this. This answer has no Scriptural basis and even contradicts Scripture.

Three points:

1. We are not bound to Scripture and whether the speculation Michelle spoke of is contradictory surely depends on your understanding of those passages.
2. There is a difference between being in the presence of God and the Beatific vision. I have been in the presence of God, but not the beatific vision.
3. Speculation is just that. It is nothing to fight about and is always open to contrary views.

Michelle was just pointing out one of the answer the Catholic Church has proffered as possible. Except for using her name in the thread, I see nothing wrong or inappropriate about questioning this, although I do think a better forum could be found.

 

[aborodki]

Wow. I can feel so much love from these “catholics”.

I apologize if I came off strong and for the “rude” title. But, I’ll stick to what I said.

Name calling? Really? I didn’t expect to be called “classless”. Well, I wanted to bring this out in the open so others could participate, share their views, and help with this. Maybe I should have messaged her privately. I am a man. According to you, not a “gentleman”. So be it. What’s the opposite of a gentleman? An ungentleman? A piece of garbage? Okay. I’m a piece of garbage. I’m an idiot. I’m a moron. Deal with it. I’m not perfect. Nor do I pretend to be. I don’t put on a “religious” face. I have the guts to be who I am. Jesus said “come as you are”; not “come when you’re perfect”.

Tamara,

The Bible says Heaven. Not just from His presence, but from Heaven:

Walking_Home,

I was going to post it in the Apologetics section, but I didn’t know where to do it.

(name removed by moderator),

So, you make what you want figurative (these passages) and literal (Eucharist)?

JustaServent and mods,

I apologize. But this needs to be addressed. I hate lies, and I call 'em like I see 'em.

Timothysis,

So the Bible is just a stupid story book? Okay. So there was no Jesus? There was no Adam, Eve, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Jacob, Moses, Job, Solomon, Elijah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Haggai, Elisha, Jonah, etc? It’s just a big lie to you? Not to me. Sorry.

So, you can take things from extra-biblical sources that have nothing in common with Scripture and I can’t quote something from a site which teaches from the Bible?

Ah, you’re one of the people monitoring my threads. Yeah, I mess up. I say stupid things. I’m not perfect dude. I’m not Jesus. Like I said, I don’t pretend I’m some perfect gentleman. I’m an imperfect piece of garbage. Sorry that I don’t put on a “religious” face. I am who I am. And God’s working to change me. It’s a process. You should all know about processes considering you believe salvation itself is a process (a near impossible process, at that). So please, stop giving me beef because it’s so tiring. And your really not helping my walk, as I have self-esteem issues. So thank you.

Ave Christo. May God bless you all in Christ’s precious name.

You know Tristian,

When you were struggling with some inappropriate actions people on this website came out and helped you and you got better. God accepting you with your imperfections is not an excuse to be an ungrateful and inconsiderate teenager. Actions have got consequences and you owe an apology to “those Catholics.”

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Btw, what does Verbum Caro mean?

Still Wondering,

Tristan was replying to me – Verbum Caro is my screen-name. It is taken from Latin phrase

*Verbum Caro Factum Est

*which means “The Word was made flesh.” It refers to the moment of the incarnation of Word of God, the Son, in Mary’s womb. It is taken from scripture, the beginning of the Gospel according to St. John, and the line continues *et habitávit in nobis – *“and dwelt among us.”

This beginning of the Gospel according to St. John is also sometimes called the “final gospel” because it is said at the conclusion of the Latin mass. At the words “Verbum Caro Factum Est” all kneel. Think of it! The faithful all kneeling down in homage to their King in recognition of that moment that he became man for our sake! What a beautiful commemoration and what tender and noble worship is offered in this gesture.

The phrase "Et verbum caro factum est, et habitávit in nobis" is also in the Angelus prayer. This traditional prayer has been said for hundreds and hundreds of years three times a day at 6AM, 12:00 Noon, and 6PM (or dawn, midday, and dusk). The local church would ring the “angelus bells” at this time and everyone, everywhere would stop what they were doing and say the prayer commemorating Christ’s incarnation. Farmers in the fields would stop their work, bow their heads and recite it. Beautiful, no? In some places, even today, you can still hear the angelus bells rung at noon.

VC

 

[preV2tradcath]

VC, I just had to congratulate you on such a wonderful explination of your screen name. Thank you.

Still Wondering,

Tristan was replying to me – Verbum Caro is my screen-name. It is taken from Latin phrase

*Verbum Caro Factum Est

*which means “The Word was made flesh.” It refers to the moment of the incarnation of Word of God, the Son, in Mary’s womb. It is taken from scripture, the beginning of the Gospel according to St. John, and the line continues *et habitávit in nobis – *“and dwelt among us.”

This beginning of the Gospel according to St. John is also sometimes called the “final gospel” because it is said at the conclusion of the Latin mass. At the words “Verbum Caro Factum Est” all kneel. Think of it! The faithful all kneeling down in homage to their King in recognition of that moment that he became man for our sake! What a beautiful commemoration and what tender and noble worship is offered in this gesture.

The phrase "Et verbum caro factum est, et habitávit in nobis" is also in the Angelus prayer. This traditional prayer has been said for hundreds and hundreds of years three times a day at 6AM, 12:00 Noon, and 6PM (or dawn, midday, and dusk). The local church would ring the “angelus bells” at this time and everyone, everywhere would stop what they were doing and say the prayer commemorating Christ’s incarnation. Farmers in the fields would stop their work, bow their heads and recite it. Beautiful, no? In some places, even today, you can still hear the angelus bells rung at noon.

VC