Ukraine and Russa

[Odell]

I know there are other threads dedicated to this subject and I am not sure where to post this. We have seen Russa and in particular Putin try to move back to traditional orthodoxy views. Yet Ukraine is prominently catholic right?? So why is supposedly an orthodox country that I admired for returning to traditional Christendom doing what is traditionally a Western move? What’s the real reason behind all this, and where does a faithful catholic stand? I’m totally ignorant of the facts so fill me in somebody!

 

[josie_L]

I know there are other threads dedicated to this subject and I am not sure where to post this. We have seen Russa and in particular Putin try to move back to traditional orthodoxy views. Yet Ukraine is prominently catholic right?? So why is supposedly an orthodox country that I admired for returning to traditional Christendom doing what is traditionally a Western move? What’s the real reason behind all this, and where does a faithful catholic stand? I’m totally ignorant of the facts so fill me in somebody!

Then you should visit the Ukraine thread in the World news thread, there is a lot of valuable information being posted. However, there is 1000 posts to sort through.

 

[Brendan_64]

This has got absolutely nothing to do with religious views. This is simply a case of Russia moving to protect its interests in area where the population is 60% Russian and where they have a military fleet in the Black Sea based at Sevastapol. It isn’t Ukraine becoming part of the EU that is Russia’s major concern, it is the arm of NATO spreading into Ukraine where Russia has its fleet based that is Russia’s main concern. Russia are simply not going to roll over and give up the strategic advantage it has by being able to continue to use Sevastapol as a military base.

 

[Odell]

Josie unfortunately I don’t have the time to go through it all. Thanks for the simple response Brendan I’m sure this is a difficult topic to sum up!

 

[andrewstx]

I know there are other threads dedicated to this subject and I am not sure where to post this. We have seen Russa and in particular Putin try to move back to traditional orthodoxy views. Yet Ukraine is prominently catholic right?? So why is supposedly an orthodox country that I admired for returning to traditional Christendom doing what is traditionally a Western move? What’s the real reason behind all this, and where does a faithful catholic stand? I’m totally ignorant of the facts so fill me in somebody!

Actually I too thought that Ukraine was mostly Greek Catholic, but I was corrected. Actually Ukraine is heavily Orthodox, Baptist ! second, and then Catholic third.

I am very concerned because it looks like world war three could possibly erupt in Ukraine.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Putin needs Ukraine because several major Russian natural gas pipelines go through there and Putin sells the natural gas to Western Europe. He also needs a warm water port.

I see this as a reassembling of the Soviet Union.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Putin needs Ukraine because several major Russian natural gas pipelines go through there and Putin sells the natural gas to Western Europe. He also needs a warm water port.

I see this as a reassembling of the Soviet Union.

I’ve been thinking the same thing. But let us not forget about Chernobyl.

 

[Odell]

Is he taking over territory by force? Because I think that would be wrong. Why couldn’t he just purchase the land??

 

[TRH1292]

I know there are other threads dedicated to this subject and I am not sure where to post this. We have seen Russa and in particular Putin try to move back to traditional orthodoxy views. Yet Ukraine is prominently catholic right?? So why is supposedly an orthodox country that I admired for returning to traditional Christendom doing what is traditionally a Western move? What’s the real reason behind all this, and where does a faithful catholic stand? I’m totally ignorant of the facts so fill me in somebody!

The Ukraine is 61% Orthodox, 10% Catholic, and around 5% Protestant. The rest of the Population, around 20%, Identifies as Not Religious.

 

[kingston1]

The CIA factbook has good info on countries too:

CIA Factbook

 

[on_the_hill]

Russia was, is now, and ever shall be expansionistic. Russia has wanted only two things over the past 1,000 years: a warm water port, and world domination.

Putin is a former colonel in the KGB. That people are supportive of anything Russia does is ridiculous. I don’t care a whit whether or not Russia has had a “rebirth” of social/religious conservatism. It can never be trusted, it will always be dangerous. And we, in the West, have the obligation to do whatever it takes to stop its expansion.

 

[Rolltide]

Russia’s number one interest, ever since Peter the Great, has ALWAYS been holding and keeping warm water ports. Without them, their trade and defense is crippled. Peter the Great started the Great Northern War with Sweden for precisely the purpose of capturing a piece of territory for their new capital, St. Petersburg. They have always regarded the Crimean Peninsula as one of their most important strategic locations. Sevastapol is their only southern warm water port. The USSR owned it, but now it’s part of Ukraine, although the peninsula is the only part of the country dominated by ethnic Russians. Currently, they have special rights to use the port and keep their Black Sea naval fleet there. However, they’ve seen a chance to annex it back, and they’ll probably take it. Unlike Hitler and the Sudetenland, it is reasonably likely that Putin will stop at just seizing the Crimean Peninsula. There’s a lesser chance (but still plausible) that they’ll take the whole country, though that could cause a bloody civil war. It is highly unlikely that the US would intervene militarily. In the end, if there’s no other choice, we’ll let them have it as a fait accompli, but if it comes to that, I think there will be a massive chilling of relations. The last twenty years of improving dialogue would certainly be totally undone in a single stroke.

 

[Brendan_64]

Putin is a former colonel in the KGB. That people are supportive of anything Russia does is ridiculous. I don’t care a whit whether or not Russia has had a “rebirth” of social/religious conservatism. It can never be trusted, it will always be dangerous.

This has a lot of truth. Putin simply plays to the gallery at home, but is at heart an old school cold-war soviet. Putin is on record as saying that the fall of the Soviet Union was the world’s greatest geo-political catastrophe of the century".

And we, in the West, have the obligation to do whatever it takes to stop its expansion.

However getting involved militarily in this conflict is something we should steer well clear of. What is needed in the region is stability, not a battle for control. Putin is not thumbing his nose at the West through this, nor is this the beginning of a Riussian move westwrads, he is simply seeking to avoid his strategic interests in the region being weakened.

The interim Ukranian government (which contains some pretty dodgy people who haven’t actually got popular support) has made it clear they wish to switch their allegiances towards the EU, which in military terms means putting themselves under the wing of NATO. Is Putin going to accept having a major strategic Russian fleet hiring a port in NATO controlled territory? Is Putin really going to let the majority ethnic Russians in Crimea, who consider themselves as Russian and look to Moscow be under the control of a government allied with the West?

It was fairly clear that Russia’s move was on the cards as soon as the Ukranian government fell. This is not about taking over the whole of Ukraine, this is about Sevastapol and the Black Sea Fleet.

Putin will not back down on Crimea, he will see securing control of the Black Sea and Sevastapol as crucial to Russia’s strategic interests. He also has majority popular support within the Crimea, the Crimean people want to be under Russian control. If we get involved militarily then all it will be will be a battle between East and West for control of a country that was previously under the influence of Moscow. We will be trying to take control of an area, from Russia, where the people want to be under Russian control. How feasible do we think that is? How difficult would it be to keep control of an area where the people don’t want us (or the Ukranian government) controlling them? Would it even be right to do so? Do we really think that going to war with Russia would be remotely sensible? Do we actually think we could win?

I think we ought to stay well clear of using military force, resign ourselves that Crimea has gone and work towards a diplomatic solution that secures Western Ukraine. Engaging in World War III is not a sensible option.

 

[The_Serpent]

All the changes that have occurred to the former Soviet Bloc are positive changes. However, it’s occasions like this Ukraine Crisis that make me wonder if I should dust off my copy of the “Perestroika Deception” by Anatoliy Golitsyn? Author claims the changes are a reorganization, while still seeking communism. The book predicted interesting stuff…like the U.S. being drawn into a war in the Middle East. Neutralizing the 'right wing" in the U.S.

 

[Brendan_64]

Well pro-Russian Crimeans chose Lenin Square in Simferopol to hold their rally, right next to a statue of Lenin and they were waving the current Russian flag (not the old Soviet Union flag) while demonstrating there.

Clearly these people see (and support) a link between the current Russia and communism.

 

[Nelka]

Well pro-Russian Crimeans chose Lenin Square in Simferopol to hold their rally, right next to a statue of Lenin and they were waving the current Russian flag (not the old Soviet Union flag) while demonstrating there.
http://i62.tinypic.com/10rsoyf.jpg
Clearly these people see (and support) a link between the current Russia and communism.

If that’s your basis than don’t hold a rally in London as there are statues everywhere and one may forge a link.

 

[Brendan_64]

If that’s your basis than don’t hold a rally in London as there are statues everywhere and one may forge a link.

I don’t know of any statues of Communist dictators anywhere in England.

So these ethnic-Russian Ukranians chose to hold their pro-Russian rally, and wave Russian flags around a statue of Lenin and you don’t see a link? Was this just pure coincidence? Were these people ignorant of Lenin as a Communist icon? Somehow I don’t think so.

 

[nmgauss]

Russia was, is now, and ever shall be expansionistic. Russia has wanted only two things over the past 1,000 years: a warm water port, and world domination.

Putin is a former colonel in the KGB. That people are supportive of anything Russia does is ridiculous. I don’t care a whit whether or not Russia has had a “rebirth” of social/religious conservatism. It can never be trusted, it will always be dangerous. And we, in the West, have the obligation to do whatever it takes to stop its expansion.

Hitler disclosed his motives in Mein Kampf. Anybody who ignored this piece of writing (Neville Chamberlain), was naïve. Has Putin written anything that reveals his underlying raison d’etre?

 

[Brendan_64]

Hitler disclosed his motives in Mein Kampf. Anybody who ignored this piece of writing (Neville Chamberlain), was naïve. Has Putin written anything that reveals his underlying raison d’etre?

He has said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th Century. He also deplored it as a real drama that has left tens of millions of Russians outside of the Russian Federation.

Viewing Putin as a ‘safe pair of hands’, a stabilising force, or as an ally is extremely naive. Putin wants to expand Russia to include all the ethnic Russians now living outside of the Russian Federation as a result of the breakup of the Soviet Union.

 

[St_Francis]

While I am certainly not a Russia right or wrong person, one thing that puzzles me about the Ukraine situation is reports that both the original pro-EU Ukraine protestors abd the gunmen and the men who came and shot them were funded by the West. I tried to look that up on the very long thread but there were only a couple of posts about it.

I think this all has a lot more to do with geopolitics than either religion or ideology. Russia has been attacked many times, most recently by Napoleon and Hitler, and their lack of natural defenses bothers them. In the same way that Bush wanted to keep the war in tye ME, away from the US, Russia seeks to distance potential wars from Russia itself.