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Peter_J
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I certainly don’t agree with them, if that’s what you’re wondering!
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andrewstx
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Did anyone notice the subject of the Icon? It is of Our Lord being baptized by immersion.
Kind of right for Baptists.
But Orthodox use immersion as well, just usually babies. They aren’t really making any point there.
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andrewstx
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But don’t Greek Catholics and Eastern Orthodox wear the exact same vestments?To win converts I would say. Sadly, it is an old story – even Catholics used to engage in it.
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Peter_J
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Yes, as far as I know.
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Peter_J
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Maybe it’s a lead in to a nice rant against Latin Catholics and others who don’t use immersion.
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dzheremi
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Yes and yes.
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Scitor
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As far as nominal…facts are facts. 73.6% of those in Brazil who claim to be Catholic only attend mass on certain holidays, i.e., Christmas, Easter, etc. The source comes for the CIA website. Other sources have it as low as ~64%, with only 20% actually attending mass on a regular basis.
So, yes, there are many self-declared Catholics that may be approached by Protestant missionaries. You may also be surprised how many Catholics actually do the approaching. Given the view of Catholics that salvation is faith + works, would you rather “inactive” Catholics stay inactive and risk eternity separated from God or hear the gospel from a Protestant and potentially grown in relationship with Christ and live eternity in heaven.
As far as the 98%, I did not post the stat…you did. By saying I can google it, it leads me to believe you are unable to provide a source.
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Scitor
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Yes, I do recognize the sarcasm. But, it is very ironic. Like you, many Catholics are offended that Protestants state that Catholics believe in salvation by works. Then when I ask what must one do to be saved, I get a list of things “I” must do. There are numerous threads on this site that state just that. If you like I would be more than happy to point you to threads that list out multiple steps that are required to achieve salvation.Don’t you recognise sarcasm when you see it Scitor? That is what the rolling eyes icon meant.
NO ZERO Catholic or Orthodox believes in salvation by works, that is a lie based solely on predjudice. How old are you Scitor?
I could as easily say “it’s easy to be Baptist, all you have to do is 'git saved and do as you will”. But I know better. You see predjudice, and ignorance goes two ways.
Would it be better if I stated Catholics believe → faith + works = salvation?
Or better yet, in all sincerity, please tell me…what do Catholics believe is necessary to obtain salvation?
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Scitor
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Nope…I am still here. As much as I would like to reply immediately to all post, life sometimes dictates otherwise.
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Miserissima
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Scitor, this is at least the third thread you’ve tried to take off topic with your questions.,
Please, please open your own thread for the same questions you have posted here and elsewhere. :tsk:
Please, please open your own thread for the same questions you have posted here and elsewhere. :tsk:
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Scitor
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Really, andrewstx? Are you really asking how old I am? My guess is I am probably the same age as you give or take 10 years.
With the above said, I am old enough and have experienced enough to learn and know that my salvation is not of my own, but totally of God. Old enough to know that it was not me who sought God, but God who called me. Old enough to know that when one answers the call of God, we cannot limit the life changing power of Christ in our life, thus our free will is limited.
You can say that once a Protestant has accepted Christ as their savior they can at a later date give up that salvation. I would say to you that you are thus limiting the power of Gods calling. Again, it is God who calls us and not the other way around. It is from this calling that I feel convicted to do “good works,” not out of obligation, but out of love of Christ.
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Scitor
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Looks like rfournier has left the building. But just in case he/she is still around, I am still waiting for an answer. See bolded below. My guess is I will never get an answer.
Second, as far as Protestant missionaries in hostile countries such as Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, etc., you are once again very misinformed. We have very high conviction in our faith and more than willing to put our money where our mouth is…ARE YOU! Please tell me, how many Catholic missionaries are in Iraq/Pakistan/Afghanistan. Do you know?
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coptsoldier
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Well, considering that the Chaldean Catholic church is historically from iraq that kind of mutes that point entirely. Iraq was apostolic up until Islam. Pakistan has many catholics and orthodox, afghanistan i am not so sure. Both protestants and catholics have martyrs, and I dont think getting drawn into an arguement over who has more is good, nor beneficial. Besides, being a martyr in an of itself isnt nessessarily a good thing, as many have died for false beliefs as well.Looks like rfournier has left the building. But just in case he/she is still around, I am still waiting for an answer. See bolded below. My guess is I will never get an answer.
Second, as far as Protestant missionaries in hostile countries such as Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, etc., you are once again very misinformed. We have very high conviction in our faith and more than willing to put our money where our mouth is…ARE YOU! Please tell me, how many Catholic missionaries are in Iraq/Pakistan/Afghanistan. Do you know?
It is historical though that protestant missionaries viewed catholics as following the antichrist, and as such went into predominatley catholic and orthodox countries to convert the heathen Pagans to relationship with jesus.
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josie_L
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If 73.6% is meant to convey the Catholic population in toto in Brazil, than how can EVERY single Catholic in Brazil be only a nominal Catholic (you realize this would also include bishops, priests, religious and devoted Catholics as being nominal too, right)? And I looked up the CIA factbook, it’s a little bizarre, i.e., Catholics in Brazil are categorically stated as being nominal, yet almost every other country, including Canada, has NO nominal Catholics, really? Moreover, your other source cites that 20% go to church regularly, so according to the CIA would these Catholics be nominal too?
Loaded question, moreover, there are many issues within evangelicalism that you are not broaching:
thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/08/01/the-growing-crisis-behind-brazils-evangelical-success-story/
No, 98% was what the Catholic population was some decades ago. Here is a Pew research study that gives stats from 1970 and onwards:As far as the 98%, I did not post the stat…you did. By saying I can google it, it leads me to believe you are unable to provide a source.
pewforum.org/2013/07/18/brazils-changing-religious-landscape/
Here’s another article from the Catholic Herald writing of the Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church (it specifies that during the 1940’s the Catholic population was at 99%):
catholicherald.co.uk/features/2013/07/26/how-the-charismatic-movement-conquered-brazil/
YOU’RE WELCOME.
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dzheremi
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On the authority of Michael the Syrian, Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church from 1166 to 1199, who compiled a list of dioceses in Central Asia that were known in his time, we know that the Syriac Orthodox Church once had dioceses in Herat, Khorasan (not to be confused with the modern Iranian province; this historical region was mostly in Afghanistan), and Aprah, as well as other places. In Zaranj (SW Afghanistan, near the border with Iran), the SOC diocese lasted until the 13th century.
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coptsoldier
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Iran has also had a large apostolic christian presence.
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Miserissima
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You’ve been given clear answers, and I’ll chip in with:Looks like rfournier has left the building. But just in case he/she is still around, I am still waiting for an answer. See bolded below. My guess is I will never get an answer.
Second, as far as Protestant missionaries in hostile countries such as Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, etc., you are once again very misinformed. We have very high conviction in our faith and more than willing to put our money where our mouth is…ARE YOU! Please tell me, how many Catholic missionaries are in Iraq/Pakistan/Afghanistan. Do you know?
Statistics from the Catholic Mission Project:
catholicmission.org.au/projects
Also, Fr. Ernesto Cagnacci also began this new mission in Kabul.
And
There are already Catholics in each country you listed.
Pakistan: “There are over one million Catholics in Pakistan, which represents less than 1% of the total population. There are 7 ecclesiastical units in Pakistan comprising 2 archdioceses, 4 dioceses, and one Apostolic Vicariate, all Latin Rite.
The Catholic Church in Pakistan is also active in education managing leading schools…”
Iraq: “There are over 300,000 Catholics living in Iraq, just 0.95% of the total population. The Catholics of Iraq follow several different rites, but most are members of the Chaldean Catholic Church. There are 17 currently active dioceses and eparchies in Iraq.”
Afghanistan: " There are very few Catholics in this overwhelmingly Muslim country — just over 200 attend mass in its only chapel — and freedom of religion has been difficult to obtain in recent times, especially under the former Taliban regime."
All quotes are from Wiki.
Glad that I could help you to Google facts. With a.little perseverance, you can get the hang of looking up answers to such challenging questions all by yourself.
Now, would you kindly stop hijacking multiple threads with the same questions and open your own?
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dzheremi
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Yes. If I recall correctly, in addition to the East Syriac presence there, there is also something in Syriac Orthodox writings of the same period (perhaps also in HH Mor Michael’s lists? It’s been a while) about a diocese in “Beth Persaye” (lit. House/Land of the Persians) which was apparently in Eastern Iran, and in Western Iran in Tabriz. Today the only Orthodox that I know of in that country that are not recently established (the Russians have something over there, don’t they? Any EO know about that?) are the country’s sizable Armenian community. From what I’ve read, most Catholics there are expats from various countries, with only a few thousand Chaldeans making up the ‘regional’ representation there. There is a very interesting film out there called “A Cry From Iran” that I have recommended on here several times about the growth of Assemblies of God/Pentecostal house churches (known in Farsi as Jama’at-e-Rabbani) in the modern era, which are somewhat notorious for being composed of many ex-Muslim converts who are often imprisoned, murdered, etc. It is interesting, though, in that the protagonist of the film, the martyred leader of the AOG/J-E-R Haik Hovsepian, was not exactly a “missionary” in the sense that many have been using it in this thread, as he was a native Armenian-Iranian Christian who had at some point had converted to Pentecostalism apparently of his own accord according to his own family. It takes all kinds, I suppose.
And it may interest you as a Catholic to know that the most famous Iranian Catholic of our time was not only an ethnic Persian of Muslim background, but a royal one at that: The older sister of Reza Shah Pahlavi (the last Shah of Iran), Princess Shams Pahlavi, converted to Roman Catholicism in the 1940s, while living in the USA. Her husband, Mehrdad Pahlbod, and their children later followed suit. She died in 1996, but it is interesting to think that this royal dynasty has a “Catholic branch” in it.
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Peter_J
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Yes and no. The issue is not evangelization as such … A better question would have been “Do Catholics evangelize places like Ukraine, trying to get Orthodox to join the Roman Communion?” Catholics did do that (quite a lot actually) in the past, but now our official position is completely against it. To look at it another way, we are very desirous that those who are Eastern Catholic will stay EC, but not that more EOs will become EC.
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Aramis
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Truth be told, there’s the difference between the official policy and the way the faithful act, as well.
In Alaska, officially, there is no attempting to convert/translate the EO to RC or EC, nor attempting to get RC or EC to become EO, but boy howdy, the EO on the street just ignore policy when it comes to the EC’s. Priests, Deacons, and Laity alike are actively violating the official policies implementing the Balamand agreement. Of course, that may be because the OCA didn’t sign Balamand… that’s been the line spouted by the OCA faithful I’ve met.
And the Antiochian Orthodox? more of the same, but adding the WRO to the mix. Plus, they have a major religious school, which, despite promises from the administration, winds up recruiting a number of Catholic youth into the AOC… by use of peer pressure at school.
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