Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy on EWTN

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francesco920 said:
Please do not let this thread become another Catholic vs. Orthodox thread. That wasn’t my intention.

Thanks.

PAX OMNIBUS VOBISCUM
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I fully understand but when statements like:
“Ukrainian Catholics do not belong to the Latin Church.” go unchallenged it then becomes acceptable. We know this statement is flawed. When Orthodox come out with statements that may not be true we certainly are straightened out and quickly, and we fully expect this to happen. I think there are many Ukrainian Catholics who would love to be autocephalus and some think that they are as fact autocephalus but in reality they arent, at least not yet anyway. I think what has been posted so far on this thread has not stooped to the level of O vs. C and this is good.

Back to lurk mode.
 
StMarkEofE said:
I fully understand but when statements like:
“Ukrainian Catholics do not belong to the Latin Church.” go unchallenged it then becomes acceptable. We know this statement is flawed. When Orthodox come out with statements that may not be true we certainly are straightened out and quickly, and we fully expect this to happen. I think there are many Ukrainian Catholics who would love to be autocephalus and some think that they are as fact autocephalus but in reality they arent, at least not yet anyway. I think what has been posted so far on this thread has not stooped to the level of O vs. C and this is good.

Back to lurk mode.
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OK, I have an idea…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=185274
 
francesco920 said:
OK, I have an idea…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=185274
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Opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

In Orthodoxy we commemorate the highest heirarch in our patriarchy or metropolia. In our case we honor Met. Herman. At one time prior to our Autocephaly we honored the Moscow Patriarch. But since we are Self Governing (Autocephalus) we honor who is at the top of our Metropolia. It seems that no matter what sui luis church under Rome they will always commemorate the Pope. This is not to say it is wrong to do so but this is not a sign of self governance. It is only at very special Liturgies that all the patriarchs of all canonical churches are mentioned at the Great Litany but normally on Sundays this is not the norm.
 
StMarkEofE said:
I fully understand but when statements like:
“Ukrainian Catholics do not belong to the Latin Church.” go unchallenged it then becomes acceptable.
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It is an ecclesial and legal fact.
PRELIMINARY CANON
Canon 1
The canons of this Code affect all and solely the Eastern
Catholic Churches, unless, with regard to relations with the
Latin Church, it is expressly stated otherwise.
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From the Eastern Code of Canons.
 
The Pope’s role in the Catholic Church is very much that of an Archpatriarch. (Bluntly enough). John 21 is part of the biblical basis of, as is Matt 16.

The requirements of Canon Law are that bishops, priests, and deacons must commemorate the Pope in every divine liturgy, and that priests and deacons must commemorate their eparchial bishop in every divine liturgy. Further, they must do likewise during the divine praises.

This is required as a sign of unity. Most commemorate all levels of their hierarchy. Priestly orders commemorate their Superior General. suffragen dioceses commemorate their Metropolitan Archbishop.
Guest bishops are individually commemorated as well.
 
Heracleides said:
And you expected… otherwise? :ehh:
.
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I don’t get it…are you saying that they (latin bishops) are being deprived or rude to the Ukranian Catholics?

In any case - anyone have any resources for Old Church Slavonic. 😃

Catholig
 
wynd said:
This is on now. Anyone watching?
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Thanks for posting. I didn’t know, and it’s still on.

I have usual Orthodox feelings for the uniates, but it’s nice for them to get their moment.
 
Well I had assumed that if you werent under the Latin Church you would be commemorating Cardinal Husar not the Pope in your Litanies. And if you didnt belong to the Latin church your last three bishops wouldnt have had to have Rome’s approval to retire and the last bishop to be consecrated in the U.S. was conducted by representatives of the Vatican.
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This doesnt sound as if you dont belong to the Latin church does it?
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ALL of this is slowly changing. It will not be too long before the ECC’s will only “inform” the Bishop of Rome whom they selected as there new Bishop.
 
one i didnt like it one bit, watched it for about one hour or so than changed the channel…i couldnt stand looking at the phoney amophour ,hope i spelled it right …or the latin clergy in the altar area…it sort of looked orthodox externally but the orthodox spirit was not there… also the the latin host displayer didnt belong in the church there…they didnt give the antidoron or the veneration of the cross at the end …Lord Lord i pray that our patriarchs have enought sense not to use the eastern catholic as a so called bridge for unity with the roman catholic church ,if the eastern catholic cant be true to its ancient orthodox ways in worship and traditional Bishops vestments i dont want them.as a bridge of unity …my take on this …also the mentioning of the murderer Jehoshaphat of the orthodox faithful as a source of unity …stan:p
 
aByzantineCatho said:
ALL of this is slowly changing. It will not be too long before the ECC’s will only “inform” the Bishop of Rome whom they selected as there new Bishop.
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In the Major Archiepiscopal and Patriarchal Churches, that’s pretty much exactly what does happen for Patriarchal/MAbp. elections; “lesser” Eparchs and Metropolitans within these are selected per the rubrics of the particular Sui Iuris church, and ordained and enthroned without any prior Roman involvement; rome is notified after the fact.

It is the Metropolitan, Eparchial, and Exarchate Sui Iuris churches that have roman appointed Bishops. Even then, the pope picks from three candidates nominated by the Synod in Metropolitan Churches Sui Iuris.

For reference, the Ukrainians are a Major Archiepiscopal church.

So, being Major Archiepiscopal, he must be confirmed by the Pope before being enthroned, but that’s pretty much a formality.

The Melkite Patriarch is enthroned, and then requests union.
 
Aramis said:
In the Major Archiepiscopal and Patriarchal Churches, that’s pretty much exactly what does happen for Patriarchal/MAbp. elections; “lesser” Eparchs and Metropolitans within these are selected per the rubrics of the particular Sui Iuris church, and ordained and enthroned without any prior Roman involvement; rome is notified after the fact.

It is the Metropolitan, Eparchial, and Exarchate Sui Iuris churches that have roman appointed Bishops. Even then, the pope picks from three candidates nominated by the Synod in Metropolitan Churches Sui Iuris.

For reference, the Ukrainians are a Major Archiepiscopal church.

So, being Major Archiepiscopal, he must be confirmed by the Pope before being enthroned, but that’s pretty much a formality.

The Melkite Patriarch is enthroned, and then requests union.
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Uhhhmm - why shouldn’t the Pope be able to decide who exactly will be ordained a bishop in the Eastern Rite Churches? I mean as a Latin Rite Catholic I feel he should. Not just to be domineering but…well part of the controversy with the Chinese government is that they don’t ask permission. It was my impression that they should ask permission.

Catholig
 
I watched the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy on EWTN and it was… wel, not what I expected. A lot of things actually surprised me. For example, the hierarchs and the congregation sat during the opening litanies of the Divine Liturgy (I thought people were supposed to stand up during that part of the DL). Also, at the beginning of the DL, Patriarch Lubomyr entered already fully vested for the liturgy; in other videos I’ve seen, Patriarchs / Hierarchs first come in wearing the mantle (although I haven’t seen a picture of Pat. Lubomyr wearing the mantle either).

I also note that the deacons who chanted the opening litanies did not bow down and make the sign of the cross (while holding their orarion) after each petition, as I remember seeing in videos of Russian Orthodox and OCA hierarchical liturgies. Is this a difference between Ukrainian and Russian liturgies, or, more generally, between Orthodox and Catholic DLs?

I have only attended Divine Liturgies (Orthodox) celebrated by priests, and I have only watched hierarchical DL’s on video or TV. I have to say that the atmosphere, the “feel” of a Catholic DL on one hand, and an Orthodox DL on the other, seem to be so different, even contrasting. I really don’t know why. .
 
Carlos_Palad said:
I watched the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy on EWTN and it was… wel, not what I expected. A lot of things actually surprised me. For example, the hierarchs and the congregation sat during the opening litanies of the Divine Liturgy (I thought people were supposed to stand up during that part of the DL). Also, at the beginning of the DL, Patriarch Lubomyr entered already fully vested for the liturgy; in other videos I’ve seen, Patriarchs / Hierarchs first come in wearing the mantle (although I haven’t seen a picture of Pat. Lubomyr wearing the mantle either).

I also note that the deacons who chanted the opening litanies did not bow down and make the sign of the cross (while holding their orarion) after each petition, as I remember seeing in videos of Russian Orthodox and OCA hierarchical liturgies. Is this a difference between Ukrainian and Russian liturgies, or, more generally, between Orthodox and Catholic DLs?

I have only attended Divine Liturgies (Orthodox) celebrated by priests, and I have only watched hierarchical DL’s on video or TV. I have to say that the atmosphere, the “feel” of a Catholic DL on one hand, and an Orthodox DL on the other, seem to be so different, even contrasting. I really don’t know why. .
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the difference is ,they lost the orthodox spirit and its ancient traditions,to me it looks externally orthodox but the orthodox spirit is not there,those phoney omphours got to go…hope i spelled it right,also the latin host displayer got to go thats in that church…also at the end no antidoron or veneration of the cross…i would prefer that the eastern catholics go latin all the way or orthodox all the way in its worship…to me the eastern catholic church can never be a bridge to unity between latin and orthodox church ,my 2 cents worth…stan:p
 
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