Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy on EWTN

[Orthodoc]

Since I was out all day yesterday I stayed up to watch a repeat at twelve midnight. Watched for 45 minutes and went to bed.

As I watched (especially the procession into the Cathedral) I couldn’t help but think of all the posts I read here and elswhere that the 22 sui juris churches in communion with Rome are all INDEPENDENT and EQUAL TO THE LATIN! Including the UGCC.

Here we had one of the biggest Ukrainian Cathedrals in the world, along with the leading UGC spiritual authority and his bishops from all over the world, preparing to serve Liturgy in one of their most promenient Cathedrals. And, once again, **we have a procession into the Cathedral where they are all in the back of the line (including the chief celebrant) behind the Latin Bishops present in one of their very own Cathedrals! **

WHERE IS THE INDEPENDENCE AND EQUALITY WHEN, ONCE AGAIN THEY ARE PLACED IN BACK OF THE BUS (so to speak)? Seems, since it was a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Cathedral, the Latin bishops should have been considered as guests if what we Orthodox are constantly being told here & elsewhere (about independence and equality) is true. As guests they should have been already placed in a place of honor when the procession started. Or at least been either behind the worldwide UGC bishops [since its their Cathedral] or (to represent equality) amongst the UGC bishops. But, once again that does not happen! Actions speak louder than words as they say! Seems nothing has changed by the words that are never backed up by the actions.

It also reminded be of an incident I have some 20+ years ago in the bookstore of this Cathedral. While I was shopping there was an old UGC priest watching me. He came over and the converstaion went like this -

Fr: Are you a priest?
Me: No Father I’m just a layman.
Fr: You from Ukraine?
Me: No Father I’m an American
Fr: Your parents from Ukraine?
Me: No Father they were both born here.
Fr: Ah, your grandaparents! Where they from?
Me: Galicia, Lemkovyna
Fr: Ah! What parish you from?
Me: St Stephens Orthodox Cathedral.
Fr: (As he makes a jesture of spitting on the floor which angered the heck out of me). Dat Russian Church! You no Russian. You Ukrainian you belong here.
Me: (Greatly agitated by trying to remain calm) With all due respect Father why would I want to be a second class Roman Catholic when I can be a first class Orthodox!

With that I walked out followed by a young UGC priest from England who congratulated me for my response! And will probably be accused of being mean spirited for stating this!

Point of this. Nothing has changed but the flowerly words. I would say the same thing today. based on what I saw.

Orthodoc

 

[Orthodoc]

ALL of this is slowly changing. It will not be too long before the ECC’s will only “inform” the Bishop of Rome whom they selected as there new Bishop.

I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.

Orthodoc

 

[StMarkEofE]

What was the protodeacon doing facing the congregation during the Gospel?

Only the priest who represents Christ should face the people during the gospel. The Deacon represents the Apostles and should be leading the congregation towards God by facing the altar during the gospel reading.

 

[stashko]

Since I was out all day yesterday I stayed up to watch a repeat at twelve midnight. Watched for 45 minutes and went to bed.

As I watched (especially the procession into the Cathedral) I couldn’t help but think of all the posts I read here and elswhere that the 22 sui juris churches in communion with Rome are all INDEPENDENT and EQUAL TO THE LATIN! Including the UGCC.

Here we had one of the biggest Ukrainian Cathedrals in the world, along with the leading UGC spiritual authority and his bishops from all over the world, preparing to serve Liturgy in one of their most promenient Cathedrals. And, once again, **we have a procession into the Cathedral where they are all in the back of the line (including the chief celebrant) behind the Latin Bishops present in one of their very own Cathedrals! **

WHERE IS THE INDEPENDENCE AND EQUALITY WHEN, ONCE AGAIN THEY ARE PLACED IN BACK OF THE BUS (so to speak)? Seems, since it was a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Cathedral, the Latin bishops should have been considered as guests if what we Orthodox are constantly being told here & elsewhere (about independence and equality) is true. As guests they should have been already placed in a place of honor when the procession started. Or at least been either behind the worldwide UGC bishops [since its their Cathedral] or (to represent equality) amongst the UGC bishops. But, once again that does not happen! Actions speak louder than words as they say! Seems nothing has changed by the words that are never backed up by the actions.

It also reminded be of an incident I have some 20+ years ago in the bookstore of this Cathedral. While I was shopping there was an old UGC priest watching me. He came over and the converstaion went like this -

Fr: Are you a priest?
Me: No Father I’m just a layman.
Fr: You from Ukraine?
Me: No Father I’m an American
Fr: Your parents from Ukraine?
Me: No Father they were both born here.
Fr: Ah, your grandaparents! Where they from?
Me: Galicia, Lemkovyna
Fr: Ah! What parish you from?
Me: St Stephens Orthodox Cathedral.
Fr: (As he makes a jesture of spitting on the floor which angered the heck out of me). Dat Russian Church! You no Russian. You Ukrainian you belong here.
Me: (Greatly agitated by trying to remain calm) With all due respect Father why would I want to be a second class Roman Catholic when I can be a first class Orthodox!

With that I walked out followed by a young UGC priest from England who congratulated me for my response! And will probably be accused of being mean spirited for stating this!

Point of this. Nothing has changed but the flowerly words. I would say the same thing today. based on what I saw.

Orthodoc

are the the eastern catholic gluttons for punishment/abused by the latin church made second class if not lower…why dont they leave rome… join with constantinoble or with the othodox mother churches…is it due that the eastern catholic are infiltrated by latin rite clergy posing as eastern catholic clergy also including the bishops ,metrpolitans, and its practically imposable to seperate from rome now in this time,just curious about it …mabe a jesuit conspiracy…infilltate divide and conquer like they did in the past,stan

 

[francesco920]

Since I was out all day yesterday I stayed up to watch a repeat at twelve midnight. Watched for 45 minutes and went to bed.

As I watched (especially the procession into the Cathedral) I couldn’t help but think of all the posts I read here and elswhere that the 22 sui juris churches in communion with Rome are all INDEPENDENT and EQUAL TO THE LATIN! Including the UGCC.

Here we had one of the biggest Ukrainian Cathedrals in the world, along with the leading UGC spiritual authority and his bishops from all over the world, preparing to serve Liturgy in one of their most promenient Cathedrals. And, once again, **we have a procession into the Cathedral where they are all in the back of the line (including the chief celebrant) behind the Latin Bishops present in one of their very own Cathedrals! **

WHERE IS THE INDEPENDENCE AND EQUALITY WHEN, ONCE AGAIN THEY ARE PLACED IN BACK OF THE BUS (so to speak)? Seems, since it was a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Cathedral, the Latin bishops should have been considered as guests if what we Orthodox are constantly being told here & elsewhere (about independence and equality) is true. As guests they should have been already placed in a place of honor when the procession started. Or at least been either behind the worldwide UGC bishops [since its their Cathedral] or (to represent equality) amongst the UGC bishops. But, once again that does not happen! Actions speak louder than words as they say! Seems nothing has changed by the words that are never backed up by the actions.

It also reminded be of an incident I have some 20+ years ago in the bookstore of this Cathedral. While I was shopping there was an old UGC priest watching me. He came over and the converstaion went like this -

Fr: Are you a priest?
Me: No Father I’m just a layman.
Fr: You from Ukraine?
Me: No Father I’m an American
Fr: Your parents from Ukraine?
Me: No Father they were both born here.
Fr: Ah, your grandaparents! Where they from?
Me: Galicia, Lemkovyna
Fr: Ah! What parish you from?
Me: St Stephens Orthodox Cathedral.
Fr: (As he makes a jesture of spitting on the floor which angered the heck out of me). Dat Russian Church! You no Russian. You Ukrainian you belong here.
Me: (Greatly agitated by trying to remain calm) With all due respect Father why would I want to be a second class Roman Catholic when I can be a first class Orthodox!

With that I walked out followed by a young UGC priest from England who congratulated me for my response! And will probably be accused of being mean spirited for stating this!

Point of this. Nothing has changed but the flowerly words. I would say the same thing today. based on what I saw.

Orthodoc

My Latin brothers can correct me if I’m wrong, but I always thought that the higher bishops come in last. Isn’t the Pope always behind the other bishops and cardinals in papal liturgies? I never recall seeing the pope come in first.

 

[VL93]

My Latin brothers can correct me if I’m wrong, but I always thought that the higher bishops come in last. Isn’t the Pope always behind the other bishops and cardinals in papal liturgies? I never recall seeing the pope come in first.

No, francesco920, you’re exactly correct. The further BACK in the processional you are, the HIGHER your “rank”.

 

[Orthodoc]

No, francesco920, you’re exactly correct. **The further BACK in the processional you are, the HIGHER your “rank”./**quote]

Gee if that is true then it means that the Eastern Bishops rank higher than their Latin counterparts in every RC conclave I’ve ever seen because I have never see a procession yet where they were first!

Orthodoc

 

[francesco920]

VL93;2792792:

No, francesco920, you’re exactly correct. The further BACK in the processional you are, the HIGHER your “rank”./

quote]

Gee if that is true then it means that the Eastern Bishops rank higher than their Latin counterparts in every RC conclave I’ve ever seen because I have never see a procession yet where they were first!

Orthodoc

I’m sure if you did you’d say that we’d be disrespecting the Eastern bishops by putting them at the front of the line with our deacons and priests as if they were no higher in rank than Latin deacons and priests.

I’m sorry but it sounds like you’re making mountains out of molehills to me. I’ve seen other processions on EWTN where the Latin and Eastern bishops were mixed. Sometimes the camera will zoom in on the Eastern bishop standing/sitting among the many Latin bishops for whatever reason, probably because he has the nicest vestments.

And actually if I recall correctly the first bishops I saw in the procession during the recent UGC DL were Orthodox representatives, not Latin bishops. If your logic holds true then that would mean that both the Latin and Eastern Catholic bishops would be acknowledging that the Orthodox representatives were higher in rank than they were

 

[Aramis]

As a comparison…

At the Celebration a little over a week ago of the HDL of St. John at St Nicholas protocathedral in Anchorage, the processional order was
The Assista, the deacons, Fr. Hutzko, a former pastor, Archimandrite Wesly (also a former Pastor), Eparch John of Toronto for the Slovenians (A visiting Bishop), Roman Archbishop Roger of Anchorage (Technically visiting, and thus he neither carried crozier nor wore his pallium), Fr. Mike (the Pastor), and Eparch William (The reigning ordinary and celebrant)

As for deacons reading the Gospel: I’ve never seen the gospel read facing away from the people… including the one time I was at an Antiochian Orthodox HDL.

I was surprised, however, to see the Deacons going through the royal doors unaccompanied; the Ruthenian deacons only went through the Royal Doors with a priest or with the gifts or gospel book. For the commemorations, they went to the amvon by the deacon doors.

 

[StMarkEofE]

As a comparison…

At the Celebration a little over a week ago of the HDL of St. John at St Nicholas protocathedral in Anchorage, the processional order was
The Assista, the deacons, Fr. Hutzko, a former pastor, Archimandrite Wesly (also a former Pastor), Eparch John of Toronto for the Slovenians (A visiting Bishop), Roman Archbishop Roger of Anchorage (Technically visiting, and thus he neither carried crozier nor wore his pallium), Fr. Mike (the Pastor), and Eparch William (The reigning ordinary and celebrant)

As for deacons reading the Gospel: I’ve never seen the gospel read facing away from the people… including the one time I was at an Antiochian Orthodox HDL.

I was surprised, however, to see the Deacons going through the royal doors unaccompanied; the Ruthenian deacons only went through the Royal Doors with a priest or with the gifts or gospel book. For the commemorations, they went to the amvon by the deacon doors.

All I was trying to make clear is that a Deacon be he a Proto or not is not a priest. The priest acting as Christ is the one who faces the people and the deacon traditionally is considered an Apostle and by being so traditionally faces the Altar in the direction of Christ. Whether one follows this in an Orthodox church or not it is the proper way for the deacon to conduct himself during the Gospel.

 

[Manofvirtue]

There were kids there.

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[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

The Pope’s role in the Catholic Church is very much that of an Archpatriarch. (Bluntly enough). John 21 is part of the biblical basis of, as is Matt 16.

The requirements of Canon Law are that bishops, priests, and deacons must commemorate the Pope in every divine liturgy, and that priests and deacons must commemorate their eparchial bishop in every divine liturgy. Further, they must do likewise during the divine praises.

This is required as a sign of unity. Most commemorate all levels of their hierarchy. Priestly orders commemorate their Superior General. suffragen dioceses commemorate their Metropolitan Archbishop.
Guest bishops are individually commemorated as well.

The Melkite Greek Catholic Church’s services only mention the bishop usually, or the bishop and the patriarch, if another is mentioned. In the Divine Liturgy, the Pope of Rome is only mentioned once, during the anaphora, where he is remembered first. My Melkite pastor said that’s their tradition.