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E
Even_So
Guest
School me on something if you would. Is the Russian and Ukraine Church different from one another. If so, how?
I hear the Russian Church is backing some of this aggression and there is even video of a Ukraine Church backing the Russians/Rebels also. Any intel on it?
I hear the Russian Church is backing some of this aggression and there is even video of a Ukraine Church backing the Russians/Rebels also. Any intel on it?
V
Vico
Guest
There are several Orthodox and Catholic Churches in Ukraine, not all in communion:School me on something if you would. Is the Russian and Ukraine Church different from one another. If so, how?
I hear the Russian Church is backing some of this aggression and there is even video of a Ukraine Church backing the Russians/Rebels also. Any intel on it?
- Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church (1595 or 988)
- Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (1921)
- Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Canonical (1924)
- Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate (1990)
- Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Kiev Patriarchate (1992)
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
Hi. It’s not even necessarily a Russian/Ukrainian thing as it is a section of the Russian Orthodox Clergy in the eastern regions of Ukraine taken over by Putin’s terrorists and separatists who only accept Russian Orthodox religious life. The reason I say terrorists is because the Head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church Sviatoslav quoted in the OP correctly states: “…that Ukraine is a victim of foreign aggression, and not in the midst of a civil war,” and because of these pro-Russian separatists’ actions.School me on something if you would. Is the Russian and Ukraine Church different from one another. If so, how?
I hear the Russian Church is backing some of this aggression and there is even video of a Ukraine Church backing the Russians/Rebels also. Any intel on it?
Putin has sent in thousands of paramilitaries into Ukraine to fight the Ukrainian authorities among whom are also Chechen Muslim terrorists and Ossetian mercenaries to fight the army of Ukraine and rule over the population they have taken over. Originally they were under the command of Russian Secret Police (GRU/FSB agent) Igor Girkin whom Putin sent in with Russian spetsnaz to launch an armed invasion/revolt in eastern Ukraine shortly after Putin annexed Crimea. It was directed from Moscow. Among the Russian ‘volunteers’ sent over was also a group of armed militants called the Russian Orthodox Army. They didn’t have enough local support among the local population (in Girkin’s own words) so Putin a month ago sent in the Russian Army proper in the thousands with precision artillery into Ukraine to decimate the Ukrainian Army at Ilovaysk, in Donetsk. That’s not a civil war; that’s foreign aggression. Any Russian soldiers killed in this battle were buried back in Russia usually surreptitiously without location of their deaths noted and with Putin sending in his goons if any Russian mothers or fathers protested at their sons not even being told where Putin was sending them to death. Putin has already labeled by law the mother of one of the deceased soldiers a “foreign agent” for objecting, which shows how much Putin values Russians’ lives in my opinion never mind the lives of Ukrainians.
“Terrorists” is also the correct term because, I note CAF member Even So you are protestant, and protestant pastors and their kids have been tortured and murdered by the Russian Secret Police agent Igor Girkin and his thugs in cold blood in his former headquarters and dungeon in Slovyansk, Ukraine. Putin’s FSB man Girkin, who came from Moscow, not Ukraine, also had many, many innocent people, journalists, Catholic priests, politicians, authorities tortured in his dungeons and many innocents murdered using Stalinist laws.
Ukraine’s Council of Churches - which represents all of Ukraine’s Churches: Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Jewish and Muslim communities - four months ago condemned the armed rebellion and separatism in eastern Ukraine - unanimously.
Statistically in Ukraine there are the following churches:
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Catholic with Eastern rite) who make up about 15% of believers in Ukraine and which church was liquidated by Stalin in 1946 but resurrected after the Soviet Union fell apart;
Ukrainain Autocephalous Orthodox Church which was liquidated by Stalin in the 1930s but now constitues some 3%; and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyivan Patriarchate) which constitutes some 39% of believers but which two churches are non-canonical because, in the world of Orthodoxy, the Russian Orthodox Church objects to Ukraine having an independent or autocephalous Orthodox Church which brings us to the
Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) (29% of believers) which is canonical and subject to the Russian Orthodox Patriarch in Moscow but many of whom have distanced themselves from him since hostilities began with Russia because of his close relationship with Putin whose invasion and armed support for ‘separatists’ the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) has as well condemned.
There is also a sizable Protestant community in Ukraine, also repressed in the Soviet times when Putin was in the KGB, which along with all the aforementioned denominations has also condemned separatism in Ukraine.
As for some Orthodox clergy belonging to the Moscow Patriarchate engaging in fighting against the Ukrainian authorities with weapons I will let a member of the said Orthodox Church speak for his Church on this issue in my following post from an article he wrote in the latest issue of the most respectable journal on religion in North America First Things founded by the late Catholic priest Richard Neuhaus. I am quoting from a respected Orthodox leader, (not Catholic to avoid accusations of polemics) who belongs to the leaders of the Church in question. It is a serious issue.
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
The Church in the Bloodlands by Cyril Hovorun who served as chairman of the department for external relations of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and first deputy chairman of the educational committee of the Moscow Patriarchate. He is a scholar in patristics and ecclesiology:
"Today, however, the UOC–MP [Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate] is making the situation worse. Its parishes and monasteries are supporting the rebel militias in the east of Ukraine, sometimes openly, sometimes in covert, coded ways. Officially, my church stands for the integrity of the country and condemns any sort of violence. It does not, however, exercise meaningful discipline over priests and others who condone and even encourage separatism and terrorism.
There is more at stake here than moral principles, important as they certainly are. The “Russian spring” in the east is a revolution of paternalism. Its ideal, often unarticulated, is for a comprehensive, state-directed system of social organization that protects individuals from the risks of freedom. It reflects nostalgia for a time when the state assumed responsibility for all aspects of life, a time when the state was the society. It would be wrong to interpret this nostalgia as simply a desire to restore the old Soviet system. The neo-Soviet ideology is quite different from the old communist ideology that espoused an official atheism. The nostalgia for a safe, stable past borrows also from the now long-gone Russian imperial ideology.
This is evident in the ongoing rebellion, sponsored by the Russian state, which expresses itself with symbols and keywords of Orthodox Christianity. The ideology of the “Russian world” has become a mobilizing force for the separatists to kill and torture. There is a video clip on YouTube, for instance, in which a monk teaches the newly recruited soldiers of the “Russian Orthodox Army” why and how to use their weapons: “Antichrist is coming to the Holy Rus. What we’re seeing now—it’s primarily a spiritual war, because the Antichrist comes to Holy Russia, against Orthodoxy.” Then the monk passes to the practical lesson of how to win the war against the Antichrist, whom he apparently associates both with the West and with the Ukrainian Orthodox Christians seeking to maintain their country’s territorial integrity: “I will teach you how you should properly load cartridges—to make bullets flowing into the goal, to destroy the enemy.” He continues, “So the Holy Fathers teach us that when you take the cartridge and load your weapon you should utter the following words of prayer: Blessed Mother of God, save us. Holy Father Nicholas, pray for us. Holy Tsar Nicholas, pray for us . . .”
This perverse use of prayer illustrates how the *ideology of the “Russian world” adopts the powerful traditions of Orthodox Christianity, but in a way essentially antithetical to their Christian genius. It demonstrates how the faith has been instrumentalized and politicized. The long Orthodox tradition of criticism of Western theology, some aspects of which are legitimate, others exaggerated, has been transformed into a simple-minded anti-Western agenda. This ideology of East versus West encourages the sacrifice of human lives for the sake of a geopolitical agenda. Unfortunately, many church hierarchs in Ukraine and elsewhere share this agenda and hesitate to articulate a proper moral evaluation of the war in the east of my country.
The consequences have been deadly. There have been numerous kidnappings and killings of *non-Orthodox Christians in the eastern Ukrainian region of Donbass, where armed conflict continues. The Greek Catholic priest Fr. Tikhon Kulbaka, a secretary of the regional council of churches, was kidnapped and then tortured by the “Russian Orthodox Army” before he was set free after a popular campaign in his support. Less fortunate were four members of a Protestant church, the Transfiguration of the Lord, who were kidnapped on June 8 and murdered the next day. In a remarkable revelation, the senior counselor of the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic,” Igor Druz, told the BBC that rebel forces had executed unarmed people, stating that this atrocity would help to build a new “social state” based on “Christian values.” This rhetoric sadly resembles the official church statements recently promulgated."
firstthings.com/article/2014/10/the-church-in-the-bloodlands
Those are the words of one the head hierarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate not mine and he knows better than any posters here I am quite sure of the situation with in those areas of eastern Ukraine under the control of Putin’s men.
The fact however is most of the bloodshed and loss of innocent life in Ukraine could be over tomorrow if Vladimir Putin simply ordered the Russian mercenaries and soldiers he sent into Ukraine home immediately and to bring back all the tanks, weaponry, artillery, rockets he has supplied them with since he launched the armed revolt with his men in eastern Ukraine. He can do this, just as he ordered Igor Girkin back to Russia. Putin’s armed men in eastern Ukraine have set up their weapons in civilian apartments to fire at Ukrainian positions, FSB agent Girkin has bragged about shooting down the Malaysian civil airliner, and they have brought Ukraine nothing but sorrow. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians, Ukrainian and Russian-speaking want peace and they live in peace in Ukraine, apart from the areas under the control of Putin’s warriors.
"Today, however, the UOC–MP [Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate] is making the situation worse. Its parishes and monasteries are supporting the rebel militias in the east of Ukraine, sometimes openly, sometimes in covert, coded ways. Officially, my church stands for the integrity of the country and condemns any sort of violence. It does not, however, exercise meaningful discipline over priests and others who condone and even encourage separatism and terrorism.
There is more at stake here than moral principles, important as they certainly are. The “Russian spring” in the east is a revolution of paternalism. Its ideal, often unarticulated, is for a comprehensive, state-directed system of social organization that protects individuals from the risks of freedom. It reflects nostalgia for a time when the state assumed responsibility for all aspects of life, a time when the state was the society. It would be wrong to interpret this nostalgia as simply a desire to restore the old Soviet system. The neo-Soviet ideology is quite different from the old communist ideology that espoused an official atheism. The nostalgia for a safe, stable past borrows also from the now long-gone Russian imperial ideology.
This is evident in the ongoing rebellion, sponsored by the Russian state, which expresses itself with symbols and keywords of Orthodox Christianity. The ideology of the “Russian world” has become a mobilizing force for the separatists to kill and torture. There is a video clip on YouTube, for instance, in which a monk teaches the newly recruited soldiers of the “Russian Orthodox Army” why and how to use their weapons: “Antichrist is coming to the Holy Rus. What we’re seeing now—it’s primarily a spiritual war, because the Antichrist comes to Holy Russia, against Orthodoxy.” Then the monk passes to the practical lesson of how to win the war against the Antichrist, whom he apparently associates both with the West and with the Ukrainian Orthodox Christians seeking to maintain their country’s territorial integrity: “I will teach you how you should properly load cartridges—to make bullets flowing into the goal, to destroy the enemy.” He continues, “So the Holy Fathers teach us that when you take the cartridge and load your weapon you should utter the following words of prayer: Blessed Mother of God, save us. Holy Father Nicholas, pray for us. Holy Tsar Nicholas, pray for us . . .”
This perverse use of prayer illustrates how the *ideology of the “Russian world” adopts the powerful traditions of Orthodox Christianity, but in a way essentially antithetical to their Christian genius. It demonstrates how the faith has been instrumentalized and politicized. The long Orthodox tradition of criticism of Western theology, some aspects of which are legitimate, others exaggerated, has been transformed into a simple-minded anti-Western agenda. This ideology of East versus West encourages the sacrifice of human lives for the sake of a geopolitical agenda. Unfortunately, many church hierarchs in Ukraine and elsewhere share this agenda and hesitate to articulate a proper moral evaluation of the war in the east of my country.
The consequences have been deadly. There have been numerous kidnappings and killings of *non-Orthodox Christians in the eastern Ukrainian region of Donbass, where armed conflict continues. The Greek Catholic priest Fr. Tikhon Kulbaka, a secretary of the regional council of churches, was kidnapped and then tortured by the “Russian Orthodox Army” before he was set free after a popular campaign in his support. Less fortunate were four members of a Protestant church, the Transfiguration of the Lord, who were kidnapped on June 8 and murdered the next day. In a remarkable revelation, the senior counselor of the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic,” Igor Druz, told the BBC that rebel forces had executed unarmed people, stating that this atrocity would help to build a new “social state” based on “Christian values.” This rhetoric sadly resembles the official church statements recently promulgated."
firstthings.com/article/2014/10/the-church-in-the-bloodlands
Those are the words of one the head hierarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate not mine and he knows better than any posters here I am quite sure of the situation with in those areas of eastern Ukraine under the control of Putin’s men.
The fact however is most of the bloodshed and loss of innocent life in Ukraine could be over tomorrow if Vladimir Putin simply ordered the Russian mercenaries and soldiers he sent into Ukraine home immediately and to bring back all the tanks, weaponry, artillery, rockets he has supplied them with since he launched the armed revolt with his men in eastern Ukraine. He can do this, just as he ordered Igor Girkin back to Russia. Putin’s armed men in eastern Ukraine have set up their weapons in civilian apartments to fire at Ukrainian positions, FSB agent Girkin has bragged about shooting down the Malaysian civil airliner, and they have brought Ukraine nothing but sorrow. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians, Ukrainian and Russian-speaking want peace and they live in peace in Ukraine, apart from the areas under the control of Putin’s warriors.
E
Even_So
Guest
Thanks for the time and effort here. Much appreesh. Learned quite a bit.
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