Ukrainian Catholic leader meets with Canadian PM, decries Russian actions [CWN]
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Melchizedek89
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Actually, the problems started when the Ukrainian (democratically elected) government was overthrown in a Western-backed coup d’etat, and the Russian speaking East (particularly in Crimea, where most of the people are Russian) didn’t trust the new, unknown, unelected regime. Furthermore, Russia doesn’t even want the broke, divided territories of eastern Ukraine! They’re happy with all the land and people and problems they’ve got.
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JackyB
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Couldn’t agree more, the EU has much to answer for.
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josie_L
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So the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the Jewish and Protestant sectors are supporting an offensive regime, how interesting?
Courtesy of my friend, Kyiv Andrew:
On February 26, 2014, with this new government, Ukraine’s Council of Churches Expressed Support for the Legitimate Ukrainian Government:
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news…question/55507
This Council consists of the leaders of Ukraine’s Orthodox Churches, Catholic Churches, Protestant Churches, leaders of the Jewish faith in Ukraine, and Ukraine’s Muslims.
The full text of the Council’s official declaration of support for the new government’s legitimacy can be found in Ukrainian here:
risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news…question/55507
On April 4 of this year the Ukraine’s Council of Churches reiterated what it had already declared above, namely:
This is stated in a communiqué adopted at a meeting of the AUCCRO on April 3, 2014, at the St. Sophia of Kyiv National Reserve, chaired by Metropolitan Onufry, locum tenens of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate), the Institute for Religious Freedom reports.
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news…/auccro/55984/
On Saturday 26 April 2014 Pope Francis received Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who was subsequently received by Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin. At an exchange of gifts, Yatsenyuk presented Francis with a photograph of Maidan square in Kyiv on New Year’s night. “This is where Ukrainians fought for their freedom and rights. Millions of people,” he said.
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news…vatikan/56207/
The countries of the EU, Canada, the USA, among others have recognized Ukraine’s interim government.
On May 6 of this year, The Synod of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church published a letter, urging Ukrainians to “actively support” Ukraine’s upcoming Presidential Elections.
risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news…_policy/56304/
Cardinal Lubomyr Huzar of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has strongly urged all Ukrainians to participate in the upcoming Presidential Elections in Ukraine.
risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news…uestion/56413/
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josie_L
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They were not Russian, i.e., they were Russian ethnic Ukrainians and they composed 58% of Crimea. The remainder were ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars, i.e., they made up 42% of the Crimean population (they did not want to separate) and they are now being ethnically cleansed from the region (after an illegal referendum that was carried out under Russian occupation).
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josie_L
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Government & Ruling Party of Regions (Yanukovych’s party) Attacks on Protesters & Journalists
infoukes.com/euromaidan/
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Melchizedek89
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All of these actions fly in the face of reason and common sense. Then again, I don’t think you need to be reminded of the fact that all of the government levels and forms within the EU, Canada and USA have already gone nuts and abandoned common sense on other things such as social issues like abortion and homosexuality. They either actively support such evil, or they don’t do anything really significant to stop the evil.
Anyways, I really hope that the EU will radiate sunshine and pleasure and happiness for Ukraine, but I don’t think so.
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Melchizedek89
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What’s your basis for declaring the referendum illegal? Guns pointing at voters? Executions if they didn’t vote a certain way? Actually, the referendum was in an environment of peace and stability, and was carried out with the greatest possible transparency (why would Russia hide it? They had a strong sense beforehand of where the people in Crimea wanted to go…). Then, something like 97% of people voted to go to Russia, with 85% of people voting in the election. A “Ukrainian-Tatar boycott” is not statistically possible.
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Melchizedek89
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This tells me nothing, other than the fact that there are destructive and occasionally violent people in Ukraine!
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josie_L
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No it doesn’t fly in the face of reason, i.e., Yanukovych’s government displayed a lack of disregard for his peoples’ well being and rights when he chose to use extremely brutal tactics against a peaceful movement, i.e., he was no longer acting as representative leader of the Ukrainian people. He therefore lost all legitimacy when he did this, sorry, but them’s are the facts, i.e., he initiated the violence, he set the tone, he deserved the consequences that ensued.
p.s. And although the U.S., Canada, and/or Europe are not generally speaking a haven for morality, neither is Russia, i.e., there are currently more abortions than there are live births in Russia, and although they have legislated against homosexual propaganda, Russia still has a lot of internal issues of a criminal, corruptive nature.
Let’s not throw stones shall we!
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josie_L
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The violent people in question happen to be the previous ruling government, i.e., Yanukovych’s party, i.e., they initiated the violence against the Maidan protestors (November 30th).
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josie_L
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You make the assumption that these statistics are correct, when they are not, i.e., there is no way that 42% of the population that was not ethnic Russian, would want to be either autonomous or part of Russia, moreover, being that the region was under Russian occupation one can only assume that there was a conflict of interest here (I’m being kind by using these words), in other words, there could not have been the “greatest possible transparency”. Moreover, there was no option to retain the status quo on the ballot box (hence the boycott), so please, don’t tell me that this was a legitimate referendum.
Not sure if you heard but last week or so, there was a report posted on the Russian presidential website that showed the true voting results from the Crimean referendum:
It’s in Russian.
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josie_L
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This is a rather astute description of events surrounding the Referendum in Crimea (it is written by Hayla Coynash, a member of the Kharkiv Human Rights Council):
khpg.org/index.php?id=1394946269
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Melchizedek89
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You’re making assumptions here. Prove that 42% of the population, based simply on an ethnic identification of “Ukrainian” instead of “Russian” would be completely averse to living in Russia! The people in East Ukraine and particularly Crimea have a long history of family linkages and business connections across the border, so the switch to Russia keeps them in a much more stable country.
Logically, yes it’s a legitimate referendum, and there is no fact demonstrating otherwise, but simply conjecture. And actually, autonomy WAS the status quo! From 1991 onwards, Crimea’s legal status was that of an Autonomous Republic within Ukraine.
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josie_L
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It’s not an assumption, i.e., ethnic Ukrainians did not want to be separated from Ukraine, anymore than I as a Canadian would want to be separated from Canada by the U.S. (even if the area I was living in had an abundance of U.S. ethnic Canadians living there). The reason being is that they knew they would be suppressed in Russia, and they are, both ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars are being ethnically cleansed in that region (the report I cited, but which is in Russian states the many violations being committed against these two groups).
No, it’s not logical and it’s not legitimate for the multifarious reasons I’ve already underlined, but if you wish to believe otherwise, than so be it.
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Melchizedek89
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No, you’re comparing apples to oranges… the only thing that the US and Russia have in common is that they are considered to be powerful nations. I can’t read Russian well enough to read that report, so you’ll either have to provide an accurate English translation of it or not bother citing it. And, why should I trust that report anyways? Who wrote it, and what connections do they have either with Russia or the current Ukrainian junta government?
Ethnic cleansing is a strong term. Where is the killing, the forced re-location en masse of Ukrainians and Tartars? And, how can you say that the Ukrainian “ethnicity” is different from Russian? There’s no such thing as “ethnic Canadian”, by the way…
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josie_L
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This article puts a chink in your armour and thus you are not willing to accept it, fair enough, however, the article was put together by the President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights (shortened to President’s Human Rights Council), it was taken down, however, because of the obvious discrepancies mentioned. The article however still lives on in a cached version.
I assume you can take that link I gave you and have it translated in English, but the article does indeed delineate major human rights violations in Crimea.Here’s an article by Halya Coynash (who speaks Russian), and is a member of the Kharkiv Human Rights Council, writing of some of the findings produced by the President’s Human Rights Council:
khpg.org/index.php?id=1399238176
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Melchizedek89
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Why would I accept the numbers in an article that was taken down? Why are these numbers more compelling than the public ones? A computer geek could’ve hacked the page, doctored the numbers, and saved a cached version. No, the only public numbers are a vote in favour of joining Russia by 97% of the Crimean population: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014This article puts a chink in your armour and thus you are not willing to accept it, fair enough, however, the article was put together by the President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights (shortened to President’s Human Rights Council), it was taken down, however, because of the obvious discrepancies mentioned. The article however still lives on in a cached version.
Here’s an article by Halya Coynash (who speaks Russian), and is a member of the Kharkiv Human Rights Council, writing of some of the findings produced by the President’s Human Rights Council:
khpg.org/index.php?id=1399238176
Furthermore, I have yet to hear reports of gross human rights violations in Crimea. By all accounts, Crimea is fairly peaceful now, unlike in Slaviansk where the (unelected, US-appointed) Kiev junta encourages its soldiers to kill their fellow Ukrainians. Generally, sane and democratic countries don’t do this kind of thing, but hold free and fair elections, encouraging everyone’s voice to be heard and issues to be openly discussed, thereby gaining the trust and recognition of legitimacy from everyone. Ukraine’s governing junta absolutely has not done that.
Do you mean the Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group? The one that feigns objectivity while being connected by the wallet to the American “National Endowment for Democracy”? No, I don’t accept their rabidly Russophobic reports. Try Al Jazeera instead for more objective reporting, since they don’t have much of a stake in this fight.
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Cavaradossi
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Yes, ostensibly to restore order. But then I must ask, is this any worse than what the current government in Kiev is doing?
What should we make of the current Ukrainian regime’s declaration that civilians can be considered enemy combatants? Have you seen the videos coming out of Eastern Ukraine? The military is shooting unarmed civilians in the head. Should we support the slaying of unarmed civilians?
And what about the constant posts from the Euro-Maidan Twitter feed, where people are talking about killing/burning ‘colorado beetles?’ Should we support the killing of anybody in Ukraine found wearing a St. George ribbon?
What about the recent remarks of the Kherson Oblast’s governor made on Victory Day calling Hitler a liberator? Should we support rising Neo-Nazi sentiment amongst elected officials in Ukraine?
Why are all of these things ok, and deserving of American and IMF money (in the form of economy destroying loans, nonetheless) when Yanukovych’s attempts to restore order were deserving of condemnation?
US policymakers naively thought that they would be able to latch on to the Euro-Maidan riots in order to effect yet another regime change (the number of which have been effected by the American government since WWII now numbers well into the dozens) like the US did during the so-called color revolutions. They succeeded, even managing to install Washington’s and Victoria Nuland’s (who famously was recorded saying, “F*** the EU”) personal favorite, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, to be the new PM. But now this plan has entirely backfired. Vladimir Putin has seized Crimea (which anybody with any grasp on the situation in Eastern Europe should have expected would happen) for its strategic value to the Russian Federation, and Ukraine has been plunged into a near civil war.
I do not claim know what the solution to the problems in Ukraine is, but I can certainly tell you without a doubt, that the US and the current government in Kiev are part of the problem, not the solution, nor is Russia, contrary to the claims made by Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk, very clearly at fault for the current insurrection and ethnic tensions in Eastern Ukraine (indeed, several notable men in the field of diplomacy including Kissinger have cautioned us that we should believe Putin’s statement that he cannot control what is happening in Eastern Ukraine). These ethnic tensions run deep into history (think of issues like Bandera’s cooperation with the Nazis, the Holodmor, etc.), and simply blaming them all on Russia’s annexation of Crimea does not help.
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josie_L
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No, the protestors were peacefully and rightfully demonstrating, i.e., they were not rioting, thus the use of Berkut was unnecessary and brutal:
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