R
rben20
Guest
Is there really a difference or are they the same culture? Just trying to understand the Ethnic parts to these two Eastern Catholic churches. Thanks
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V
Vico
Guest
There are many definitions of Ruthenian. The two ritual Churches were created because of historical and traditional differences of their people.
Partitioning of Poland-Lithuania brought about two terms: Ruthenian in Austria and Ukrainian in Russia. Ruthenian could refer to the East Slavic people of Lithuania, now Belarus and Ukraine. There there are the Rusyn people also known as Ruthenian and they live an many countries (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Servia). Galicia included the Northern slopes of Carpathian mountains and the valleys of upper Vistula and upper Dniester, Bug, and Seret rivers.
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/history-map/carpatho-rusyn.GIF
halgal.com/ruthenian.html
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
The question is, where in the world is Ruthenia? 
V
Vico
Guest
Perhaps it will be indepent again.The question is, where in the world is Ruthenia?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Ruthenian is a latinized form of Rusyn, the name of an ethnic minority of people who live in the Carparthian Mountain region as shown in the maps previously posted.
There are Rusyns who have and still live in what is modern day Ukraine, but again are a small minority in that country. Due to policies of the Communist era, many Rusyns ended up identifying themselves as being citizens of the country in which their part of the Rusyn homeland became bounded, including in the Ukraine. This certainly creates some confusion even outside of church circles.
As for church matters, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Byzantine Ruthenian Rite Catholic Church are both part of the Universal Catholic Church, which both worship using the liturgical expression of the Byzantine (Eastern Christian) tradition. Following the Great Schism which brought them to Orthodoxy, these churches reunited with Rome at different times (the mother Ukrainian church with the Union of Brest in 1596 and the mother Ruthenian Catholic church with the Union of Uzhhorod in 1646) and thus have separate hierarchies to this day. Both share a common liturgical heritage and similar chant [liturgical music] traditions, the latter being heavily influenced by custom of their geographic region and Slavic roots.
The members of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church for the most part were ethnic Ukrainians, whereas generally the members of the Byzantine Ruthenian Rite Catholic Church were or decended from the Rusyn minority. The Ukrainian Church is larger than its Ruthenian sister church, as ethnic Ukrainians historically outnumbered ethnic Rusyns. Of course, in Europe, there has been “cross-over” especially in the Ukraine, given the political conditions there. Likewise in the US, there has been some “cross-over”, and it is certainly no longer the case that these are predominately “ethnic” / immigrant churches in America. The Eastern Churches in the US now have many former Latin (Roman Rite) Catholics in their folds (as well as from other Christian faiths), as the understanding of the breadth of the Universal Catholic Church has increased dramatically post-Vatican II and with the strong support and encouragement of both Blessed John Paul II (who spoke of the “two lungs” of the Catholic Church - East and West) and Pope Benedict XVI.
There are Rusyns who have and still live in what is modern day Ukraine, but again are a small minority in that country. Due to policies of the Communist era, many Rusyns ended up identifying themselves as being citizens of the country in which their part of the Rusyn homeland became bounded, including in the Ukraine. This certainly creates some confusion even outside of church circles.
As for church matters, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Byzantine Ruthenian Rite Catholic Church are both part of the Universal Catholic Church, which both worship using the liturgical expression of the Byzantine (Eastern Christian) tradition. Following the Great Schism which brought them to Orthodoxy, these churches reunited with Rome at different times (the mother Ukrainian church with the Union of Brest in 1596 and the mother Ruthenian Catholic church with the Union of Uzhhorod in 1646) and thus have separate hierarchies to this day. Both share a common liturgical heritage and similar chant [liturgical music] traditions, the latter being heavily influenced by custom of their geographic region and Slavic roots.
The members of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church for the most part were ethnic Ukrainians, whereas generally the members of the Byzantine Ruthenian Rite Catholic Church were or decended from the Rusyn minority. The Ukrainian Church is larger than its Ruthenian sister church, as ethnic Ukrainians historically outnumbered ethnic Rusyns. Of course, in Europe, there has been “cross-over” especially in the Ukraine, given the political conditions there. Likewise in the US, there has been some “cross-over”, and it is certainly no longer the case that these are predominately “ethnic” / immigrant churches in America. The Eastern Churches in the US now have many former Latin (Roman Rite) Catholics in their folds (as well as from other Christian faiths), as the understanding of the breadth of the Universal Catholic Church has increased dramatically post-Vatican II and with the strong support and encouragement of both Blessed John Paul II (who spoke of the “two lungs” of the Catholic Church - East and West) and Pope Benedict XVI.
V
Vico
Guest
Excellent summary. I want to add that the Ruthenian Catholics were split up according to their countries also, so it is not simply two eastern Catholic Churches now:
Union of Brest, Poland, 1595:
Ukrainian
Belarusian
Marcha Union, Holy Roman Empire, 1611:
Krizevci (Rusyns in Serbia to Croatia)
Union of Uzhorod, Hungary, effective 1655:
Ruthenian (USA, Czech Republic, and Ukraine)
Slovak (Slovakia)
Hungarian (Hungary)
M
mariyka
Guest
This is very edifying to me, as a daughter of immigrant parents. Here in the US, I noticed that many of our Ukrainian friends would also go to the Byzantine Catholic churches. My mother said they were “Lemkos”, from the Carpathians. So, are Lemkos a kind of, or another name for, Rusyns?
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
My great grandparents were Lemkos, who were from the area once known as Galicia in the south of modern day Poland (north side of the Carpathian Mountains - see the maps already provided).
It’s a complicated subject, as there are a few different “flavors” of Rusyns, who spoke different dialects. That said, your theory is correct - the Lemkos are indeed a subset of Rusyns.
For some reason, as I understand it, the Lemko Rusyns were often referred to as Ukrainians.
If you Google “Lemko”, you’ll quickly find websites devoted to the history of the people that can probably explain this better than I ever could. In at least one of these sites, people of Lemko origen would be able to find their family name and the identity of their village of origin.
P.S. to Vico - thanks for the additional data. I surely didn’t intend to exclude our Serbian & Croatian brethren! As you certainly know, this subject is quite complicated by its own history.
It’s a complicated subject, as there are a few different “flavors” of Rusyns, who spoke different dialects. That said, your theory is correct - the Lemkos are indeed a subset of Rusyns.
For some reason, as I understand it, the Lemko Rusyns were often referred to as Ukrainians.
If you Google “Lemko”, you’ll quickly find websites devoted to the history of the people that can probably explain this better than I ever could. In at least one of these sites, people of Lemko origen would be able to find their family name and the identity of their village of origin.
P.S. to Vico - thanks for the additional data. I surely didn’t intend to exclude our Serbian & Croatian brethren! As you certainly know, this subject is quite complicated by its own history.
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Vico - I did enjoy seeing and absorbing your additional data. Would you agree that the religious Rusyns in Canada today would be grouped with the Slovaks in this classification scheme?
H
Hesychios
Guest
Speaking of the Rusyn people, I didn’t think they had ever actually achieved independence in any significant way. There was that abortive March 1939 episode but nothing else I can think of.
Now that you point out the pipelines, it will never happen.
V
Vico
Guest
Subcarpathian Rus has been part of many countries, I believe this is correct, so one can see the great number of changes between 1867 and 1991, the Ukraine for 20 years now:
Hungary 895
Habsburg Royal Hungary 1526
Austro-Hungarian Empire 1867
W. Ukraine National Republic, 1918
Czechoslovak Republic (Subcarpathian Rus) 1938
Republic of Carpatho-Ukraine, 1939, one day
Hungary (Annexed), 1939
Soviet Union, 1945
Ukraine, 1991
V
Vico
Guest
It really is complicated! Here is a map:
http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/9679/magocsieq7.png
There are many Rusyns in Canada and the USA.
There are many that faithful enrolled in various Byzantine Tradition Greek-Catholic Churches in North America that do not have jurisdictions for their ritual Church. Generally the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church cares for others that do not have jurisdictions in Canada, and the Byzantine Catholic Church (or Melkite) cares similarly for others in the USA.
Look here:
cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=54&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=HQ&pageno=1
cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf
I think classifications vary. Some want to use the language rather than the genetics. For those using language Rusyn is an independent language, to others is is classed as subdialects of Ukrainian. I know that a Rusyn language primer is about to be published. There is also a new flag:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Rusyn_flag.png
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Indeed complicated!
Since you posted the Rusyn flag, and given that we are so fond of our music tradition, let’s not forget that “catchy” Rusyn “national anthem” …
Ja Rusyn byl,
Jesm’y budu,
Ja rodylsja Rusynom,
Cestnyj moj rod ne zabudu
Ostanus’ jeho synom!
I was, I am, and will always remain a Rusyn,
I was born a Rusyn,
I shall never forget my honorable heritage,
I shall remain its son.
:harp:
Since you posted the Rusyn flag, and given that we are so fond of our music tradition, let’s not forget that “catchy” Rusyn “national anthem” …
Ja Rusyn byl,
Jesm’y budu,
Ja rodylsja Rusynom,
Cestnyj moj rod ne zabudu
Ostanus’ jeho synom!
I was, I am, and will always remain a Rusyn,
I was born a Rusyn,
I shall never forget my honorable heritage,
I shall remain its son.
:harp:
V
Vico
Guest
V
Vico
Guest
The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has most of the faithful in Ukraine (2010 statistics) in these nine largest eparchies:
755,821 Archeparchy of Lviv, Ukraine
603,918 Eparchy of Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine
447,350 Eparchy of Ternopil-Zboriv, Ukraine
398,885 Eparchy of Sambir-Drohobych, Ukraine
382,000 Eparchy of Stryj, Ukraine
323,838 Eparchy of Sokal-Zhovkva, Ukraine
240,000 Major Archeparchy of Kyiv, Ukraine
239,300 Eparchy of Kolomyia-Chernivtsi, Ukraine
216,000 Eparchy of Buchach, Ukraine
But there are many more. For example in North America:
Metropolitan Archeparchy of Winnipeg, Canada – 29,740
Eparchy of Edmonton, Canada – 28,845
Eparchy of New Westminster, Canada – 7,500
Eparchy of Saskatoon, Canada – 7,256
Eparchy of Toronto, Canada – 36,900
Metropolitan Archeparchy of Philadelphia, USA – 22428
Eparchy of Saint Josaphat in Parma, USA – 10862
Eparchy of Saint Nicholas of Chicago, USA – 10500
Eparchy of Stamford, USA – 16873
The Byzantine-Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church is smaller overall, but has a larger number of faithful in the USA.
Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, USA – 59484Eparchy of Parma, USA – 12328Eparchy of Passaic, USA – 20258Eparchy of Van Nuys, USA – 2795
Eparchy of Mukacevo, Ukraine – 380,000
Apostolic Exarchate of the Czech Republic – 178,150
755,821 Archeparchy of Lviv, Ukraine
603,918 Eparchy of Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine
447,350 Eparchy of Ternopil-Zboriv, Ukraine
398,885 Eparchy of Sambir-Drohobych, Ukraine
382,000 Eparchy of Stryj, Ukraine
323,838 Eparchy of Sokal-Zhovkva, Ukraine
240,000 Major Archeparchy of Kyiv, Ukraine
239,300 Eparchy of Kolomyia-Chernivtsi, Ukraine
216,000 Eparchy of Buchach, Ukraine
But there are many more. For example in North America:
Metropolitan Archeparchy of Winnipeg, Canada – 29,740
Eparchy of Edmonton, Canada – 28,845
Eparchy of New Westminster, Canada – 7,500
Eparchy of Saskatoon, Canada – 7,256
Eparchy of Toronto, Canada – 36,900
Metropolitan Archeparchy of Philadelphia, USA – 22428
Eparchy of Saint Josaphat in Parma, USA – 10862
Eparchy of Saint Nicholas of Chicago, USA – 10500
Eparchy of Stamford, USA – 16873
The Byzantine-Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church is smaller overall, but has a larger number of faithful in the USA.
Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, USA – 59484Eparchy of Parma, USA – 12328Eparchy of Passaic, USA – 20258Eparchy of Van Nuys, USA – 2795
Eparchy of Mukacevo, Ukraine – 380,000
Apostolic Exarchate of the Czech Republic – 178,150
S
Sybok
Guest
first you have to understand, besides a couple thousand enthusiasts in the carpathian province, there is or at least no longer is a “Ruthenian ethnicity” in Ukraine. in modern Ukraine everyone from the galacia and Carpathian region calls themselves Ukrainian and there is no difference.
as you probably know “Ruthenian” is the Latin word for Rus ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus ) and Ruthenian was used by the royal courts of the Lithuanians and Polish to describe Ukrainians living in their realms, i believe the Holy See in those days also used the word for them.
only in immigrant communities in places like USA and Serbia where there was a lot of pre-WWI emigration dose the “ruthenian” identity survive.
very generally speaking Ruthenians (Rusnak or Rusin in their dialects) are what immigrants from galacia (western ukraine) and espiecially the carpathian mountains called themselves pre-WWI and ukrainian is what immigrants post-WWI from galacia called themselves. within ruthenian people there were smaller subcultures/tribes such as boykos and lemkos who were particular to certain regions with different but highly related dialects, customs, and art. other slavic ethnicities such as the polish also have regional tribes with particular customs and dialects.
the word Ukrainian and Ukraine dates back to the founding of Ukraine during the Kievan Rus era in the middle ages and Ukrainian and Ukraine is what the cossacks and locals under them called themselves and their land, during the 19th century awakening of Ukrainian nationalism the Ukrainian identity spread westward until reaching its totality by WWI.
in USA and Serbia because of emigration and Slovakia because of political and geographical border the people never identified with Ukrainian nationalism that their neighbors who stayed behind embraced. so you have people in these lands who speak and are enthusiastic about being ruthenian. are they different from Ukrainians? yes, their attitudes reflect the places they grew up in (USA, Serbia) and that their dialect (or language as they prefer) is “archaic” - there are actually several dialects and some sound very close to Church Slavonic to me while others sound to me like Ukrainian but with a lot of Slovak influence.
hope that helps and i hope i didnt offend anyone
in america there is big difference to me between ukrainian and byzantine/ruthenian parishes, at ukrainian parishes there are a lot of ukrainian people usually, at ruthenian parishes there are not
plus at ruthenian parishes its more cosmopolitan and most people (remember ruthenians usually came pre-WWI) you have many 4th, 5th and 6th generation people so its rather assimilated plus you have other ethnic groups such as “regular” americans, slovaks and hungarians. many byzantine/ruthenian parishes in USA were founded by slovaks or hungarians.
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
What’s an ethnic “enthusiast”? Someone who likes a certain ethnic food?
These are real people - they are called Rusyns!
And by the way, they call themselves Ukrainian publicly because they live in the Ukraine (some, at least) and they are forced to shed their ethnic identity.
Those who are interested may view a recent short documentary:
youtube.com/watch?v=LznUohGlY50
It probably did not help, as your premise and “facts” are sadly inaccurate. I am a Rusyn by background, but will not take personal offense for anything offered here. It’s just another opportunity to highlight that this understanding is (i) common, (ii) inaccurate and (iii) has been popularized unsuccessfully for some time now, as it stems from hundreds of years of efforts (including those of some national governments today) to marginalize and extinguish the Rusyn people.
Among the most recognizable persons of Rusyn descent was Andy Warhol (really, Warhola), who famously referred to his ancestors as the “People from Nowhere”. They have no country of their own. That does not mean they do not exist!
Similar views on other peoples have allowed genocide to occur unchecked. Ethnocide is equally immoral …
And while we share much in common in terms of liturgical heritage with our Ukrainian cousins, the Ruthenian Church has a unique and distinct chant tradition and other distinguishing features. Our liturgical rite (Byzantine) is the same, but the expression is unique.
I could go on, but the hour is late …
Peace!
D
Diak
Guest
“Ruthenian” is a loaded term with multiple historical meanings. It first of all can be a geographic term (terra Ruthenia) to mean the “Land of Rus”, namely all of the region formerly part of Kyivan Rus’ including areas near and adjacent to the Carpathian Mountains.
It can also be a corporate cultural and ethnic term to mean the inhabitants of this area which now would include Ukrainians, Belarusins, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians and some Romanians by current nationality.
It can also be a related linguistic term to describe either general language or particular dialects of Slavic languages in these areas - “Rusyn” or “Rusyny” are also often used in this context (especially in regard to proximity with the Carpathian Mountains and includes “Subcarpathians”, “Transcarpathians” as well as other ethnic interconnection with Galicia, Volyn, Bukovina, etc.).
It can be a liturgical term as the “Ruthenian Rescension”, the liturgical corpus promulgated by Rome for the Catholics of Rus’ which is a particular development of the Constantinopolitan-Slavic-Kyivan liturgical tradition in these areas.
More recently and better known in the US, this term was used by what is now the Byzantine Catholic Church in America to legally designate itself after the separation of the then unified Greek Catholic eparchy after the death of Bishop +Soter Ortynsky in 1916.
Since Ukraine had declared itself independent in 1917-1918, when Fr. Petro Poniatishyn was designated to be the Apostolic Visitator for the primarily Galician parishes (including “Subcarpathians”, etc.) in the US, it was decided to call this jurisdiction “Ukrainian Greek Catholics” since the country of origin of most of these parishoners and of the new immigrants increasing the parishes of this church was now largely in the Ukrainian Republic.
The remainder of the non-Galician parishes under the administration of Fr. Gabriel Martyak (including Hungarian, Slovak, “Transcarpathian”, etc.) identified themselves as “Ruthenian”. Some later did designate themselves as “Hungarian Catholic” (such as the parish in Solon) or “Slovak Catholic” but this was not that common.
These designations in the US became more or less concretized when Bishops +Constantine Bohachevsky and +Basil Takach were elevated to become hierarchs for each group in 1924, +Constantine for the “Ukrainian Greek Catholics” administerd by Fr. Petro Poniatishyn, and +Basil for the “Ruthenian Greek Catholics” administered by Fr. Gabriel Martyak. Both +Constantine and +Basil were later elevated to Metropolitans and the original eparchies split into more suffragan eparchies the US. In Europe they were all corporately called “Greek Catholics” until the breakdown of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the creation of particular regional Churches by nationality or political borders.
Later in the US the “Ruthenian” Metropolia changed its name officially to the “Byzantine Catholic Church in America”, which itself is somewhat problematic and confusing since Ukrainians, Romanians, Melkites, Russians, and the various “Ruthenian” groups (Slovaks, Hungarians, etc.) all use the Byzantine ritual.
So what is in a word? In the case of “Ruthenian”, it is loaded.
It can also be a corporate cultural and ethnic term to mean the inhabitants of this area which now would include Ukrainians, Belarusins, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians and some Romanians by current nationality.
It can also be a related linguistic term to describe either general language or particular dialects of Slavic languages in these areas - “Rusyn” or “Rusyny” are also often used in this context (especially in regard to proximity with the Carpathian Mountains and includes “Subcarpathians”, “Transcarpathians” as well as other ethnic interconnection with Galicia, Volyn, Bukovina, etc.).
It can be a liturgical term as the “Ruthenian Rescension”, the liturgical corpus promulgated by Rome for the Catholics of Rus’ which is a particular development of the Constantinopolitan-Slavic-Kyivan liturgical tradition in these areas.
More recently and better known in the US, this term was used by what is now the Byzantine Catholic Church in America to legally designate itself after the separation of the then unified Greek Catholic eparchy after the death of Bishop +Soter Ortynsky in 1916.
Since Ukraine had declared itself independent in 1917-1918, when Fr. Petro Poniatishyn was designated to be the Apostolic Visitator for the primarily Galician parishes (including “Subcarpathians”, etc.) in the US, it was decided to call this jurisdiction “Ukrainian Greek Catholics” since the country of origin of most of these parishoners and of the new immigrants increasing the parishes of this church was now largely in the Ukrainian Republic.
The remainder of the non-Galician parishes under the administration of Fr. Gabriel Martyak (including Hungarian, Slovak, “Transcarpathian”, etc.) identified themselves as “Ruthenian”. Some later did designate themselves as “Hungarian Catholic” (such as the parish in Solon) or “Slovak Catholic” but this was not that common.
These designations in the US became more or less concretized when Bishops +Constantine Bohachevsky and +Basil Takach were elevated to become hierarchs for each group in 1924, +Constantine for the “Ukrainian Greek Catholics” administerd by Fr. Petro Poniatishyn, and +Basil for the “Ruthenian Greek Catholics” administered by Fr. Gabriel Martyak. Both +Constantine and +Basil were later elevated to Metropolitans and the original eparchies split into more suffragan eparchies the US. In Europe they were all corporately called “Greek Catholics” until the breakdown of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the creation of particular regional Churches by nationality or political borders.
Later in the US the “Ruthenian” Metropolia changed its name officially to the “Byzantine Catholic Church in America”, which itself is somewhat problematic and confusing since Ukrainians, Romanians, Melkites, Russians, and the various “Ruthenian” groups (Slovaks, Hungarians, etc.) all use the Byzantine ritual.
So what is in a word? In the case of “Ruthenian”, it is loaded.
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
Indeed, as you have well highlighted, omitting only that it is Latin for Rusyn, Rusnak, etc. and used to refer to that group of ethnic peoples, first and foremost, not simply a group of people living in a certain area. This is like saying that all people who live in New York are native New Yorkers. Ask any New Yorker and they will likely tell (correct) you otherwise.
Rusyns can be identified as genetically distinct from other ethnic and national groups with whom they have historically dwelt.
Our Catholic Church does in fact still use the term. The proper Latin name for the Eparchy of Passaic, for example, is Eparchia Passaicensis Ruthenorum.
Certainly a lot of usage of one word used to refer to a group of people who according to some don’t exist …
FWIW - Rusyns are a recognized ethnic minority in every country in which they live except the Ukraine.
D
Diak
Guest
It follows that the people of *terra Ruthenia *would be the populi Ruthenorum. The original designation in Latin was purely geographical; all of the ethnic, cultural and liturgical sub-demarcations came later which profoundly confuses the usage of that term.
Personally to me it makes more sense to retain “Ruthenian” as a jurisdictional term per the original separation of that jurisdiction from Bishop +Soter rather than the even more ambiguous “Byzantine” as all Greek Catholics are essentially “Byzantine”.
Rome’s not even consistent on this. The proclamation from Rome naming Metropolitan-elect +William designated him as “Metropolita di Pittsburgh dei Bizantini,” not “Rutheni”. But in the announcement it states him having served in " di Parma dei Ruteni" back in the 1950s when it was still known as “Ruthenian”.
Personally to me it makes more sense to retain “Ruthenian” as a jurisdictional term per the original separation of that jurisdiction from Bishop +Soter rather than the even more ambiguous “Byzantine” as all Greek Catholics are essentially “Byzantine”.
- Status