Ukrainian vs Ruthenian

[ByzCathCantor]

Personally, I don’t think Churches should be divided secularly. I am against this practice of having “cultural” Churches, Catholics are one I think there should be one, “eastern Catholic Church”, which has Churches in different countries but who are not specific.

As such, my personal view is that if it united with the UGCC, the UGCC would ultimately unite with other eastern Catholic Churches and make one official eastern Catholic Church, perhaps just called “Byzantine Catholic Church”, whose leaders would meet together, along with the Pope.

It is uncertain what you mean when you say secular churches.

It is also unclear how one can be both Ukrainian and Ruthenian in terms of Church affiliation. The are closely related yet unique expressions.

The distinctions between the UGCC and the Ruthenian Church may be “cultural”, if you will (more aptly put, the differences have been culturally influenced), but I am reminded every time we have a UGCC priest at our parish as a substitute celebrant that there are real differences in liturgical expression. Our usual substitute, a blessed man, has no ear for Prostopinije whatsoever. I also served in a church where a new priest was assigned who had just transferred from the UGCC, and we tutored him in Prostopinije as we went along.

Administration and unity on one hand may have some inherent appeal, but distinction in praxis should be respected and maintained irrespective. Kyr Lubomyr has suggested something along these lines, with much merit.

Possibly uniting Ukrainians and Ruthenians, where much is admittedly shared, is one thing - going beyond that to suggest one united Eastern Church suggests sterilizing all other ECs in favor of UGCC praxis, which is contrary to the current model of recognizing the individual dignity of each of the sui juris Churches in the Catholic Communion, and preserving these traditions. I do not think it just to wish a course that dooms Ruthenian praxis and othe traditions to extinction.

I am a big fan of Patriarch Sviatoslav, and wish him great success. IMO, I think he can serve Christ’s Church more broadly in the cause for reunification of the Apostolic Churches.

 

[Vico]

The country you are referring to is Carpatho-Ukraine, a state that existed around one day, on March 15, 1939 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpatho-Ukraine. Notice the flag and the anthem . Also, I don’t think that map is right, because there were two Ukraines at that time, not just one as it shows.

Again, this is largely to do with history. Around the same time, two other Ukrainian republics also declared independence - the Western Ukrainian Peoples Republic (covering… western Ukraine ), and simply “Ukraine” (covering central and eastern Ukraine).

Interestingly, all three of these Ukrainian republics (Carpatho-Ukraine or Subcarpathian Rus, the Western Ukrainian Peoples Republic, and Ukraine) declared independence from three seperate countries, which shows why the matter is so complicated .

It certainly is complex. Subcarpathia from 1526 has had many changes. That may uses contemporary borders only.

 

[Marhitych]

It is uncertain what you mean when you say secular churches.

I mean I don’t agree with “Ukrainian Catholic Church”, “Syrian Catholic Church”, etc, I aim for there to be one Eastern Catholic Church, which would be a united part of the Catholic Church.

We would be much stronger that way, also, the Eastern Catholic Churches would be like a mini-Orthodox world (as such, there would still be different “Churches”, but they would work together much more, within the Catholic Church, it would be almost symbolic, we would all have our Patriarchs and etc who were subject to the Pope).

For example, rather than it becoming the UGCC, maybe it could become the Greek-Catholic Church of Central and Eastern Europe or something like that.

 

[Marhitych]

Administration and unity on one hand may have some inherent appeal, but distinction in praxis should be respected and maintained irrespective. Kyr Lubomyr has suggested something along these lines, with much merit.

True, I would happen to agree. There is actually already something similar with UGCC in far eastern and southern Ukraine, where even websites of parishes say we are “Orthodox Catholics” and put a slightly different emphasis on certain things during mass and so forth (i.e. cerkva.od.ua/, Odesa UGCC).

 

[dvdjs]

Thanks for all of these links.

Sad to see all of this agitprop - including the raising up of the usual Orthodox and Hungarian spectres - being foisted against the Mukachevo Eparchy and Ruthenian sui juris church.

Your inflammatory take on:
goloskarpat.info/zakarpattya/…-vladyka-milan.
which would better be given here:
mgce.uz.ua/post.php?id=733
is more that a little ironic, since Bishop is rebuking the very site that you are promoting here.

 

[dvdjs]

Here are some more links about the political agenda of the Marhitych group.
Google translate is reasonably OK on the text, but not so good on the comments.

zakarpattya.net.ua/Gromada/93075-Spilka-imeni-Marhitycha-zvernulasia-do-vladyky-Milana-i-Papy-Benedykta-KHVI-
zakarpattya.net.ua/Gromada/92633-V-Uzhhorodi-vshanuvaly-pam%E2%80%99iat-vladyky-Marhitycha-ta-pryinialy-zvernennia-proty-rusynskoi-tserkvy

 

[Marhitych]

Here are some more links about the political agenda of the Marhitych group.
Google translate is reasonably OK on the text, but not so good on the comments.

zakarpattya.net.ua/Gromada/93075-Spilka-imeni-Marhitycha-zvernulasia-do-vladyky-Milana-i-Papy-Benedykta-KHVI-
zakarpattya.net.ua/Gromada/92633-V-Uzhhorodi-vshanuvaly-pam%E2%80%99iat-vladyky-Marhitycha-ta-pryinialy-zvernennia-proty-rusynskoi-tserkvy

Definetely, it’s wrong to have a Church for a nationality that does not exist, and Greek-Catholics from both Mukachevo and UGCC are doing what they can to unite . Naturally, of course, the goal of all Christians is to unite, rather than have a bunch of smaller Churches.

 

[Marhitych]

Thanks for all of these links.

It’s my pleasure.

Sad to see all of this agitprop - including the raising up of the usual Orthodox and Hungarian spectres

I completely agree, it should be up to the people to decide.

is more that a little ironic, since Bishop is rebuking.

What’s more ironic is it was proven, by the administrator of the site, that the so-called “comments in his address” actually all come from the came IP address as comments, including ethnic slurs, against people who are for unification… Meaning one person wrote all of them and then a few hours later an article appeared about them . The old “divide and conquer” strategy at work again .

 

[dvdjs]

Definetely, it’s wrong to have a Church for a nationality that does not exist

It’s always awesome to see people denying the identity of others. Always reminds me of of the way Russians see Ukrainians.

Greek-Catholics from both Mukachevo and UGCC are doing what they can to unite.

Some are, some are in opposition. Some are pushing the issue a bit hard - especially with the rants on Magyar colonialism and fascism, the attacks on the seminary faculty, the far fetched twisting of twisting Vladyka Milan’s words, the denial of identity, etc. As soon as this ugliness emerges it’s easy to see what’s what.

All politics, including forbidding the Ukrainian language during mass or firing bishops who want to unite, msut definetely be out of the Church

I think discernment on the matter of using Church Slavonic or Ukrainian, the use of prostopinije or Galacian chant, the level of connection and cooperation with the UGCC, and decisions of clergy, is in the the capable hands Vladyka Milan Šášik. Bands of over zealous partisans will, as always, provoke contention that makes things harder, rather than easier, to move in a positive direction. The rhetoric of the Marhitych group is poisonous; they will marginalize their own cause.

 

[Vico]

I mean I don’t agree with “Ukrainian Catholic Church”, “Syrian Catholic Church”, etc, I aim for there to be one Eastern Catholic Church, which would be a united part of the Catholic Church.

We would be much stronger that way, also, the Eastern Catholic Churches would be like a mini-Orthodox world (as such, there would still be different “Churches”, but they would work together much more, within the Catholic Church, it would be almost symbolic, we would all have our Patriarchs and etc who were subject to the Pope).

For example, rather than it becoming the UGCC, maybe it could become the Greek-Catholic Church of Central and Eastern Europe or something like that.

So would each parish have a particular type of ritual and typikon, under one mixed eparchy, as we have where the eastern Catholics are in the care of an eparch of another ritual church? That would be like the current Ordinariates for the Faithful of Various Eastern Catholic Churches Without Their Own Hierarchy. Or just by Tradition, Byzantine for example?

 

[Marhitych]

It’s always awesome to see people denying the identity of others. Always reminds me of of the way Russians see Ukrainians.

I actually diagree, because no one who knows the history denies the Rusyn identity of Ukrainians. Anyone can look up what Ukrainians were called and what Ukraine was referred to prior to the 20th century. Obviously there are different takes on it - some say it proves Ukrainians are close to Russians (Rusyn, Belarusian, Russian), others say it means other things. There are simply a few steps that need to be taken:

Step 1: go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpatho-Ukraine
Step 2: note key points: … The autonomous Carpathian **Ruthenia **(officially known as Subcarpathian Ruthenia until then) changed its name to “Carpatho-Ukraine” soon afterwards, in November 1938… The Hungarian Minister of the Interior, Miklos Kozma, had been born in Ruthenia, and in mid-1938 his ministry armed the Rongyos Garda (‘Ragged Guard’), which began to infiltrate guerillas into southern Slovakia and Ruthenia (ethnic rusyn territory)… Slovak and Ruthene nationalism grew more intense… Carpatho-Ruthenia declared its independence as the Republic of Carpatho-Ukraine, with the Reverend Avgustyn Voloshyn (Авґустин Волошин) as head of state…
Step 3: look up this Avgustyn Voloshyn guy was: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgustyn_Voloshyn
Step 4: … look up who exactly he was: … he was voted as MP in Houses of Parliament in Prague as a leader of Ruthenian National Christian Party (also called Ruthenian Peasants Party)…
Step 5: look up what this Ruthenian National Christian Party was: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_Peasants_Party: Category, ethnic political parties in Czech Republic: **Rusyns **- Autonomous Agrarian Union, Carpatho-Russian Labour Party of Small Peasants and Landless, Russian National Autonomous Party, Ruthenian Peasants Party
Step 6: commence work on re-unification.

As for Russians, they don’t see Ukrainians like that, as the country of Russia, for example, recognizes and has recognized a seperate ethnicity for thousands of years already. There are many documents from Russia denoting allocating this much money or schools to the Ukrainian minority of Russia, for example. Another example of this would be today if another “minority” came up called “Malorusians”, a term Ukrainians were sometimes called. Technically it’s a different name but a very similar people.

 

[Marhitych]

So would each parish have a particular type of ritual and typikon, under one mixed eparchy, as we have where the eastern Catholics are in the care of an eparch of another ritual church? That would be like the current Ordinariates for the Faithful of Various Eastern Catholic Churches Without Their Own Hierarchy. Or just by Tradition, Byzantine for example?

By tradition, Byzantine. So it would be “Byzantine Catholic Church of Kyiv”, “Byzantine Catholic Church of Mukachevo”, “Byzantine Catholic Church of Damascus”, “Byzantine Catholic Church of Washington” etc, as such, an eastern Catholic anywhere in the world would know what to expect in any eastern Catholic Chruch. As of now, many people who go to Churches unfortunately go there because their own ethnic group will be there, and not for many other reasons .

 

[Marhitych]

The rhetoric of the Marhitych group is poisonous; they will marginalize their own cause.

To be quite honest, I was browsing the forum looking for advice on preayer, registered when I saw this thread and picked my name after I read Marhitych was a guy in the Mukachevo Church who wanted unification (or as he called it “re-unifaction”). I don’t know who this “group” is or if it even exists, a search of it gives virtually no results .

 

[dvdjs]

I actually diagree, because no one who knows the history denies the Rusyn identity of Ukrainians. Anyone can look up what Ukrainians were called and what Ukraine was referred to prior to the 20th century. There are simply a few steps that need to be taken:

You protest much too much. It is not the least bit original to talk about the manner in which the word was used too hundred years ago, then leap to conclusion as about contemporary usage, then deny the existence of a group recognized every where in the region except by Ukrainians in Ukraine.

We’ve heard this all before. It was not the least bit persuasive 100 years ago, and it still isn’t.

Perhaps people in contemporary Zakarpatskaya see things differently. But if that were the case you would not have to form organizations with great agitprop communiques aimed at undercutting your bishop, seminary faculty, and the simple folk who just want to say, as they have for centuries: Отче наш, Иже еси на небесех…

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Andy Warhol once quoted famously, “I am from nowhere!”

Should it now be revised posthumously to “I do not exist!” ?

 

[Vico]

By tradition, Byzantine. So it would be “Byzantine Catholic Church of Kyiv”, “Byzantine Catholic Church of Mukachevo”, “Byzantine Catholic Church of Damascus”, “Byzantine Catholic Church of Washington” etc, as such, an eastern Catholic anywhere in the world would know what to expect in any eastern Catholic Chruch. As of now, many people who go to Churches unfortunately go there because their own ethnic group will be there, and not for many other reasons .

Yes, some feel more at home with same language or country.

So, to elaborate, for overlapping territories, there would be a plurality of eparchs representing the traditions, such as: Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean, Constantinopolitan, and Roman?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Here are some more links about the political agenda of the Marhitych group.
Google translate is reasonably OK on the text, but not so good on the comments.

zakarpattya.net.ua/Gromada/93075-Spilka-imeni-Marhitycha-zvernulasia-do-vladyky-Milana-i-Papy-Benedykta-KHVI-
zakarpattya.net.ua/Gromada/92633-V-Uzhhorodi-vshanuvaly-pam%E2%80%99iat-vladyky-Marhitycha-ta-pryinialy-zvernennia-proty-rusynskoi-tserkvy

All this sounds eerily similar to the Ukrainian government’s efforts to marginalize (jndeed, permanently suppress) the Rusyn ethnic identity.

 

[Marhitych]

You protest much too much. It is not the least bit original to talk about the manner in which the word was used too hundred years ago

In the scholarly world, that is how many things are decided upon . If it was a seperate nationality, there would be differences, at least once, between the two - yet they are always called the same thing .

then deny the existence of a group recognized every where in the region except by Ukrainians in Ukraine.

Absolutely absurd. In fact, the group is not recognized anywhere outside of where emmigration took place from Ukraine between 300 and 100 years ago (i.e. when Ukrainians were still called Rusyns).

We’ve heard this all before.

I don’t know who you speak for, but most people actually haven’t heard of the facts given (namely that Ukrainians were always called Rusyns), but once they do, things are straightened out .

It was not the least bit persuasive 100 years ago, and it still isn’t.

Again, I don’t know who you speak for or your level of education, but for the majority of individuals, such proof is, indeed, persuasive .

For Avgustyn Voloshyn, for example, the great Rusyn politician, author, and whose goal it was to “reunite with Ukraine”, there wasn’t even real debate to be had .

Perhaps people in contemporary Zakarpatskaya see things differently.

Most definetely. As previously noted, great Rusyn politician Avgustyn Voloshyn of Zakarpatskaya viewed things quite differently, and even led a country of Rusyns who viewed themselves as nothing other than Ukrainian. Currently, most people there want to become one Church, and in the area itself, it’s viewed simply as being a matter of time. As noted in this article (but I’m sure this is some sort of secret organization undermined on a conspiracy to destroy an enemy group just posing as being neutral Greek-Catholics) zakarpattya.net.ua/Gromada/89731-Hreko-katolyky-Rakhova-prahnut-iednosti-z-UHKTS… “we, Greek-Catholics of Zakarpattya, ask Milan Shashik to re-unite with the UGCC” .

But if that were the case you would not have to form organizations with great agitprop communiques aimed at undercutting your bishop

Would you be able to list the website, or phone numbers of some of these organizations? I am interested in seeing them .

simple folk who just want to say, as they have for centuries: Отче наш, Иже еси на небесех…

Those folk see no home for themselves other than the UGCC , as noted here: zakarpattya.net.ua/Gromada/89731-Hreko-katolyky-Rakhova-prahnut-iednosti-z-UHKTS.

Btw, there are many traditionalists in the UGCC, who, like in the Roman Catholic Church with Latin, want to re-institute Church-Slavonic.

 

[Marhitych]

All this sounds eerily similar to the Ukrainian government’s efforts to marginalize (jndeed, permanently suppress) the Rusyn ethnic identity.

I wonder if this is the same Ukrainian government as the (Ukrainian?) government of the predominantly Rusyn (Ukrainian?) region of Zakarpattia that, in 1939, voted to proclaim an independent state called Carpatho Ukraine, with the same flag, anthem, langauge as Ukraine, set a goal of “re-uniting” with the western Ukrainain Peoples Republic and Ukraine into one state, as well as having the same logo as the King of Kyiv Volodymyr did?. After all, the political party they were from as the Rusyn Christian Democratic Party.

Or were they just imposters? Or perhaps strange Rusyns who wanted to destroy their own “ethnic identity”?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Issues of ethnic identity aside, how does one reconcile the obvious connection between the separate agreements - the Union of Brest and Union of Ungvar (Uzhgorod) - and the related, separate sui juris Churches, with the notion of a single identity applicable to both (asserting arbitrary differences at best)?

To suggest unity for practical reasons is one thing - to deny the dignity of peoples with different origins and customs is another. There is a distinct liturgical praxis here as well. History is full of poor examples of the execution (pun intended) of such views and policies.