Un-married Couple Vacation

[kozlosap]

This is not a question how you and I are to “give the benefit of the doubt” etc to others or how we are to “look” or “think” about others --but how in ones own actions one is to avoid scandal (and other sins).

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10474120&postcount=16

OK - Gotcha! I guess it depends on what others perceive as being scandalous. I’m not trying to be holier than thou when I tell you that trying to live the two great commandments are weighing on my mind in the last weeks, especially since the resignation of the Holy Father. At first I thought that the resignation was scandalous, but after putting myself in the fictional shoes of an elderly person having to be the leader of two billion followers, my heart changed. Loving the Lord with all my heart and treating others as I want to be treated has truly opened my eyes to my own prejudice and intolerance of others.

 

[Bookcat]

Loving the Lord with all my heart and treating others as I want to be treated has truly opened my eyes to my own prejudice and intolerance of others.

Yes we are to look with love and be careful to look at things the right way

CCC:

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#III

And also “call a spade a spade” in terms of actual objectively wrong actions and also help others towards the light: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

 

[kozlosap]

So let me get this strait. Someone posts a question on this site asking for moral guidance and your response is basically “it’s up to you!?” And that is what you have realized in 60 years? That everyone should just do whatever they want with no regard to how others perceive them? Whatever happened to the good old idea of shame?
It seems to me this type of attitude is exactly what is wrong with the modernist relativist culture we live in. And we should be at least caring of others enough to worry about their souls and their relationship with God…

SHAME? I don’t want to shame anyone. And yes, I worry about those I love and care about being able to live with the Lord in heaven. I also share the belief with many other devout and wonderful Catholics that a person must develop and live with a well formed conscience. What does a person do if their conscience and the dogma of the Church don’t match exactly?
Do we all leave the Church or do we do like the other 2 billion and continue to pray and study? Throwing suspossed insults around such as “modernist and relativist” remind me of the last election when each side threw around adjectives such as liberal, troll, anti-woman, progressive and robot. Guess what, human beings are continually growing in their beliefs and thoughts about morals - if we are static then we are intellectually dead.

 

[mgoforth]

OK, I’ll bite. Perchance just who are they causing scandal to? ‘Victim’ - I must be really groggy this morning. We have many problems to deal with and make right in this works and worrying about going on a 2 day vacation and two adults staying in the same room isn’t very high on any list I’ve seen. Maybe as I turn 60 I’ve finally realized that everyone is in charge of their own soul and conscience and their actions are between themselves and Our Lord, not the next door neighbor or Parish gossip leader.

They’re causing scandal to other Catholics with weak consciences. Read that section of 1 Corinthians, it’s all about causing scandal to others. You’re saying it’s basically every person for him or herself…sorry to say…but that’s not a Catholic sentiment at all.

 

[Moore11]

I also share the belief with many other devout and wonderful Catholics that a person must develop and live with a well formed conscience. What does a person do if their conscience and the dogma of the Church don’t match exactly?.

We are talking about a young unmarried couple who want to share a room. YOU are talking about if a well formed conscious does not match with Church teaching and bringing secular elections into it. You need to focus on the main point and not be so transparent.

There was a time when the words “have you no shame” meant something. It isn’t that we should shame others but rather that others should feel same in wrong actions. You are setting the stage for why you probably disagree with the Church on social issues like marriage and birth control but are so far out of the ballpark on the issue of this thread that I don;t even understand your point.
Question: Do you think you should advise the couple in question do do whatever they want? Should they room together? Yes or no. Some issues really are black and white.

 

[kozlosap]

We are talking about a young unmarried couple who want to share a room. YOU are talking about if a well formed conscious does not match with Church teaching and bringing secular elections into it. You need to focus on the main point and not be so transparent.

There was a time when the words “have you no shame” meant something. It isn’t that we should shame others but rather that others should feel same in wrong actions. You are setting the stage for why you probably disagree with the Church on social issues like marriage and birth control but are so far out of the ballpark on the issue of this thread that I don;t even understand your point.
Question: Do you think you should advise the couple in question do do whatever they want? Should they room together? Yes or no. Some issues really are black and white.

If they say they can “room” together and maintain their chastity, then I take their word for it. I was using the secular elections as an example of some posters always having to throw out perceived negative adjectives at those with whom they disagree - modernist, etc.

 

[Moore11]

If they say they can “room” together and maintain their chastity, then I take their word for it…

Thats funny. I’ll keep that in mind with teenage daughters. Gee dad we can totally be alone together. Gee dad we can totally share a motel room. gee dad we can totaly sleep in the same bed. Gee dad we can totally be naked next to eachother. We can maintain our chastity and we dont care about what it appears to be to others.

I wish you were my mom when I was a young. I would have gotten a lot more action.

 

[kozlosap]

Well, my 28 year old daughter is 28, has a BA and a JD from well known Catholic universities and is doing well, thank you very much. She is an awesome young lady who swam NCAA Division 1 as an undergrad and went away to college a month before she turned 18. Thank God I did trust her to make the right decisions and also to be a good friend. Having taught high school for 33 years, I think I learned from watching other parents, both the good and the bad and I also knew my daughter by the time she was old enough to go out with friends and felt confident in her values. I am so proud of her. I still worry, but she is 28 years old, a practicing attorney and has travelled and studied all over the world so her judgement is fine with me.

 

[PolarGuy]

Kozlosap, I’m glad your daughter is a fine young woman, but some points to ponder:

1. We lose objectivity when we look at the morality of our close family members, particularly children. The parents have probably not been born who did not see their daughters as pure-white virgins who are morally upright and never acted the least bit lustfully. Therefore, although I have no doubt your daughter is as you describe her to be, citing to your own children is perhaps IMHO not an objective way to convince others that your position is correct.
2. Moreover, it also overlooks the fact that many, many children deliberately mislead their parents as to what they do when mom & dad aren’t looking. Women call mom & dad from college & say they are studying, when they are with their boyfriend. Boys do the same. Parents probably know one quarter of what their college age kids do. I am not saying your daughter did those things…but many children do.
3. Saying that you trust your children is fine. But there’s a reason some say “trust…but verify.” Deliberately placing, or allowing placing, of adults into an environment where “one thing leads to another,” is another matter, and “same room vacations” is with all due respect one of those situations IMHO. Must one thing lead to another? Of course not. But it’s tempting fate…and why do that? It’s unnecessary. 100% unnecessary.

 

[Moore11]

Well, my 28 year old daughter is 28, has a BA and a JD from well known Catholic universities and is doing well, thank you very much.There are precious few Catholic Universities and some that are well known are not very "Catholic. But honestly, the degrees your daughter has have absolutely zilch to do with this subject. In fact I know a lot of seedy college fraternities that spew out STDs like PHDs. She is an awesome young lady who swam NCAA Division 1 as an undergrad and went away to college a month before she turned 18.That is great. But you are not telling me anything about premarital sex and her character. Thank God I did trust her to make the right decisions and also to be a good friend. Aw, you were a Sunny “D” mom. So was my mother!Having taught high school for 33 years, I think I learned from watching other parents, both the good and the bad and I also knew my daughter by the time she was old enough to go out with friends and felt confident in her values. I am so proud of her. I still worry, but she is 28 years old, a practicing attorney and has travelled and studied all over the world so her judgement is fine with me.Again how does anythign you said reflect her judgement? But I can tell she must be a great daughter by how you speak of her. Of that there is no doubt. What would have been helpful would to comment on her never smoking pot, drinking before 21 or saving sex for marriage. Because those types of things is what we are talking about here. And a lot of bar passing lawyers have seedy questionable ethics For future reference you might want to leave out the lawyer card when trying to show how great someone is. (I honestly hope you take that as the tounge in cheek joke it is and know that I don’t mean anything bad by it. Just having a little fun and lightening up our conversation!

The fact that your daughter got a degree and a job has nothing to do with an unmarried couple staying in the same room on vacation. And the fact that you were a cool mom who “trusted” their kids also does not really address the point either. As your kid would say “Objection, relevance” (At least that is what they say on Law and Order.) I know many parents who did not trust their kids who had great moral kids as well. I also know many parents who trusted they little angels who never do anything wrong and the kids were high and naked most of the time…
I am a good guy. Married, PRACTICING faithful obedient, Catholic, 4 kids, stay at home homeschooling dad. But my trusting mother does not know about the drugs, drinking and sex that I was part of growing up. And I can tell you that if a girlfriend and myself went on a vacay, and said oh we wont do anything, the reality of the situation is that neither of us would have gotten much sleep.
I see the world from a realist point of view and the reality is that 100 percent of couples say they could be chaste and could be trusted. yet we have such a high rate of non virgin marriages and cohabitation. Why is that? I guess they all did nto have “cool” moms.

 

[Bookcat]

(regarding the aspect of scandal…)

My boyfriend and I are both 29 years old, in a very serious relationship, and have been successful at waiting for marriage. We’ve gone on several vacations together and always managed to find hotels where we could stay in a suite, meaning that there were seperate sections to the hotel room, even if we were in one room. We are going on a weekend trip to the apple orchards near our town, and there are only the conventional hotel rooms available. Considering how committed we are to waiting, would it be wrong for us to share a room, but of course sleep in seperate beds, for one night?

Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist

Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,988
Re: Hotel Room
Dear BG,

I commend the two of you for respecting each other by waiting for your wedding night. There is another consideration that is pertinent here, however. It is the matter of the witness you are giving. Most others who know that you are spending the night together don’t know that you are being celibate. This includes hotel personnel as well as casual acquaintances. One could say that it is none of their business. Whether it is their business or not, the fact remains that by your example you are either speaking for Christian values or you are not. The world is either better for our example or it is worse for it. And we never know how much we affect others by how they perceive us.

Stay in separate rooms!

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=77145&highlight=vacations+together

 

[mgoforth]

The fact that your daughter got a degree and a job has nothing to do with an unmarried couple staying in the same room on vacation. And the fact that you were a cool mom who “trusted” their kids also does not really address the point either. As your kid would say “Objection, relevance” (At least that is what they say on Law and Order.) I know many parents who did not trust their kids who had great moral kids as well. I also know many parents who trusted they little angels who never do anything wrong and the kids were high and naked most of the time…
I am a good guy. Married, PRACTICING faithful obedient, Catholic, 4 kids, stay at home homeschooling dad. But my trusting mother does not know about the drugs, drinking and sex that I was part of growing up. And I can tell you that if a girlfriend and myself went on a vacay, and said oh we wont do anything, the reality of the situation is that neither of us would have gotten much sleep.
I see the world from a realist point of view and the reality is that 100 percent of couples say they could be chaste and could be trusted. yet we have such a high rate of non virgin marriages and cohabitation. Why is that? I guess they all did nto have “cool” moms.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying here. My parents also have very little idea about the many, many terrible things I did in college. I was basically a low-level criminal for 5 years and I know my parents were not aware of half of what I was into because my mother would be dead now from shock and grief if she did know.

I don’t think it’s helpful to call anyone a “Sunny-D mom”, but it’s also true that very few parents have an objective view of their children’s morality. By the time they hit college, most kids are experts at lying to dear Mom and Dad. I was.

But to get back on subject…most people of any age are also experts at lying to themselves. I’m sure the OP really believes that nothing will happen on this vacation…but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true. Everyone on these forums who ask such questions also declare that they would NEVER sacrifice their chastity. If they were so sure, why even ask the question??

We’ve got to remember that It’s not just the sin of scandal that we have to avoid, but also placing ourselves in the near occasions of sin. The OP will almost certainly be tempted to act against chastity on this vacation…if there wasn’t some natural sexual attraction between this couple they wouldn’t be together in the first place. To put themselves in a situation that the Church identifies as a frequent occasion of sin (cohabitation) is flirting with danger.

The Church’s answer is “no”, unmarried couples should not sleep in close proximity to each other, and therefore they shouldn’t go on overnight vacations and share a hotel room. The temptations toward impurity are usually the strongest temptations we will face in our lives and we have to behave accordingly.

 

[kozlosap]

I did not follow my daughter around when she was in college since she was 350 miles away. So, do you put an age on when you cut the apron strings and let your children learn to live on their own? My daughter told me recently that she was a virgin until age 23, and was a Delta Gamma, so I guess not all sorority girls are easy targets. Her Catholic University was awesome even though it’s not on the very small list that the Newman Society approves of. Sometimes when picking a university you have to look at academic rankings instead of which schools are very traditionalist.

Back to the OP’S question- when pondering the answers, I was under the assumption that both of the individuals were adults, not teenagers living at home. Maybe I was a SUNSHINE Mom, thank goodness I didn’t end up with a druggie, slutty, atheist, welfare using daughter. Maybe, just maybe there is some good in being a parent who teaches their children basic moral values by demonstrating through daily life and then trusting that they listened…

 

[mgoforth]

Back to the OP’S question- when pondering the answers, I was under the assumption that both of the individuals were adults, not teenagers living at home.

Adults and teenagers both face sexual temptations. Perhaps you’re approaching this question from a parent’s point of view, rather than as an adult Catholic giving advice to another adult Catholic?

No matter the age of the couple, if they’re unmarried it’s unwise to sleep in the same room because it creates an occasion for sin AND can give scandal.

 

[thewanderer]

Back to the OP’s question.

There are 3 sinful behaviours to consider here

1. Actual sexual sin
2. The near occasion of sexual sin
3. Leading or encouraging others to sin by your example (causing scandal)

The first of these is never permissable, the other two are permissable if there are serious enough reasons to require them and if the risk is sufficiently small. I cant know all of the details in your particular relationship, so I cannot give you a definitive answer on this. However, I will throw out some factors for you to consider and think about.

Re: Near occasion of sin

while there are some people who would not find sleeping in the same house/room by themselves a near occasion of sin, there are many people who have told themselves that it would not be a problem and then fell into sin because of it, so it is not good to assume too quickly that this kind of situation will not be a problem for you. Yes, there absolutely are people for whom this is not a near occasion of sin, but as far as I can tell they are not in the majority.

Re: Scandal

Scandal is caused by others assuming you are sinning and allowing that to normalize the idea of sin and make it easier for them to sin themselves in a similar way. The more respected of a figure you are and moral example to others the more problematic this is. For instance, if a priest were to go around gossiping about people, it will lead people to think that gossiping must not be as bad as they thought, if priests do it then it must be ok kind of thinking. Similarly any Catholic or even Christian holds a higher responsibility of setting a moral example than non-Christians. Everyone knows that Christians make a claim to knowing the truth about what is and is not moral behaviour. So if they see a christian living together, or going on holiday together and renting a single room its going to give off the impression that even the moral authority of Christianity and Catholicism is now admitting that these things are morally permissable. Now, again, having said all that there are ways to minimize scandal, and perhaps even remove it altogether and there can be circumstances which make it necessary to take the risk of causing some level of scandal, in which case it can still be moral so long as one does everything in their power to reduce the chance of scandal.

I can’t tell you what to do because I don’t know all of the circumstances, but hopefully the above will help you discern what is the best thing to do. Go to adoration and spend some time praying about it and listening to hear God’s answer about your particular circumstances.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Seriously, just go ahead and do it. Have fun!

Get two rooms, though. Just save up until you have enough. If it’s that much of a burden to afford two rooms, then you should probably be saving money first until it’s not unreasonable. Alternatively, find a couple - married or unmarried - to go with. Then men stay with men, women with women.