Un-necessary Dogma & Cafeteria Catholics?

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Two questions:
  1. I don’t see where papal infallibility or the assumption of Mary being dogma are necessary for salvation - so why make them mandatory? Teaching is good, but when you make a mandatory “rule” you risk more division, and I can’t see division over things not necessary for salvation.
  2. Are “Cafeteria Catholics” really Catholics? Seems to me a Catholic is to submit to ALL church teaching?
I’m working on these questions right now as I go through RCIA. I don’t have a problem with Papal infallability in matters of faith. To me, that just means he is the head umpire and his decision is final. There has to be someone like that in any organization that seeks to maintain unity.

I’m still working on the marian dogmas. You could try Tim Staples book Behold Your Mother. That is helping me a lot.

Like you I have a problem with what seem to be non-essentials being dogma. So I am working to understand why they are dogma–to find out what I’m missing.
 
There are parts of the Bible that, at first glance, don’t seem to me as necessary for salvation. In fact, argument could be made, and was made by some early Christians, that having a written “New Testament” was an unnecessary invention. This innovation by the Magisterium was divisive, as was the Magisterium’s decision to exclude the great majority of plausible scriptures.

If you look at a cathedral, it is hard to see how this buttress is necessary, but it may be supporting something else not visible until further analysis. In a play by Shakespeare, it is hard to see why this scene is in there, but the third time you see the play you now see how it helps set the mood for something else coming up.

But why the definition of the Assumption, in 1950? Here’s my personal IMHO: in the 1960s some Catholic and Protestant writers pushed the idea that Jesus was only human. They depicted him as a revolutionary, who promoted equality, led the poor against the rich, no supernatural connection at all. Liberation theology.

Other writers depicted Jesus as only spiritual. They taught he was not an actual physical individual, but a trend, a feeling that existed around a community, about 2000 years ago, to lift aspirations of people; that spirituality is a goal in itself. The New Age movement.

Perhaps the Assumption dogma reinforces both the supernatural, and physical realities of Jesus. (All that is just my opinion). Or maybe I am wrong, and it holds up something else that won’t be apparent yet. I do see, now, why it was crucial for the Church to oppose Arianism, though at the time the struggle against it would have seemed divisive and unnecessary, and not needful for salvation.

The best book to explain dogma is “Orthodoxy” by G. K. Chesterton.
Quite right. Context is everything.
Things happen for a reason, and the Church, in her wisdom gives us much to learn about.
Much like taking the SAT’s…you can’t be expected to know everything on any given day. And we wouldn’t want to. Catechesis is a life long process.
 
Markie Boy,

First of all, I want to say that I have been EXACTLY where you are right now with the same exact questions, etc. I just want to encourage to keep at it - keep digging, keep asking, keep praying, keep seeking.

At some point along the way, you will finally get to the point of realizing that the absolute beauty of Catholicism is that Jesus left a Church Magisterium (the Apostles)- not a Bible - when He ascended to Heaven. He gave those Apostles authority and sent the Holy Spirit to protect them from heresy and lead them into all Truth. That being said, that same protection remains with the Church Magisterium/Pope throughout the ages. So, with the Mariology dogmas, etc., if one realizes that the Church cannot issue heretical dogma, it is a no-brainer that to be a faithful Catholic, you MUST assent to that dogma.

However, assent does NOT mean that you must understand or even agree with it. What it means is that you must realize, first and foremost, that the Church is the authority and not yourself. I don’t understand much about many different subjects but that makes them no less true simply because I don’t understand them.

G.K. Chesterton has a great quote, “A Catholic is a person who has plucked up courage to face the incredible and inconceivable idea that something else may be wiser than he is.”

That is the essence of being a faithful Catholic, IMHO.

P.S. Scott Hahn and Tim Staples both have some great audios and books about Mariology that I highly recommend. You’ll realize why the dogmas concerning Mary are integral to the Catholic faith if you read/listen to them.
 
Two questions:
  1. I don’t see where papal infallibility or the assumption of Mary being dogma are necessary for salvation - so why make them mandatory? Teaching is good, but when you make a mandatory “rule” you risk more division, and I can’t see division over things not necessary for salvation.
  2. Are “Cafeteria Catholics” really Catholics? Seems to me a Catholic is to submit to ALL church teaching?
There would only be one way to ecumenically resolve division, and that is for the Catholic Church to have no dogma at all. We could have a lowest common denominator, which would be quite low, but then we might as well continue that path into the lowest common denominator of atheism.

There is no such thing as a cafeteria Catholic, there is such a thing as a cafeteria Protestant, nice sermon now lets have coffee in the church cafeteria. Protestant churches do have annexed add-on cafeterias, I have yet to see that in the Catholic Church.

Dissent from Catholic teaching is mostly in one area. Contraception. Why? I don’t fully know. Life is difficult.
 
Two questions:
  1. I don’t see where papal infallibility or the assumption of Mary being dogma are necessary for salvation - so why make them mandatory? Teaching is good, but when you make a mandatory “rule” you risk more division, and I can’t see division over things not necessary for salvation.
  2. Are “Cafeteria Catholics” really Catholics? Seems to me a Catholic is to submit to ALL church teaching?
It seems Mary’s bodily entrance into heaven was a preparation for her Queenship in heaven.

Now someone might say, “well it doesn’t require her bodily assumption into heaven for making her queen in heaven”. Well maybe. But then it wouldn’t be known that she, soul and body, is what is queen. But in defining that her body went to heaven too, then Mary as a whole being, is queen, and also our heavenly Mother.

I do believe that some of the bishops had some misgivings about defining dogmas about Mary for the same reason you gave. But in the end, the bishops felt one with the Pope, that it was the right time, and defined it.

2. Are “Cafeteria Catholics” really Catholics? Seems to me a Catholic is to submit to ALL church teaching?

Well, if they don’t accept all of them, they are not cut off from the church, so that would mean that they are still in the church. But on the other hand, they are not in “good condition” either. And after all, that is what really counts.
Daniel 3
And now we follow you with all our heart and we revere you and seek your face.
 
  1. I agree that neither is necessary, but then I’m not Catholic ;). And you’re right, it is divisive, I myself was a Catholic who didn’t agree with either, particularly papal infallibility for example. But in the end to be Catholic is to submit to those dogmas as they’re not optional from a Catholic POV which is why they’re dogmas and not simply teachings.
  2. I asked myself that question for a long time as I was definitely someone who could have been classified as “Cafeteria” (though I never saw it as pejorative as it was an apt description). Personally for me the answer was finally, No. I couldn’t really call myself Roman Catholic since I did not agree with the Church on many of its teachings, along with other disagreements/problems unrelated to teaching. To continue to do so for me was hypocritical at best, downright lying at worst. 🤷
I can respect this entirely. Just as I could not accept some of the teachings of my loved Protestant Church (the Church I knew as a child and gave me a wonderful home and the Bible) I could not remain because I knew that to do so was hypocritical. I felt like a liar as I sat in the pew listening to a man I respected teaching things that I could not agree with.

It broke my heart but I found “the fullness in truth in Catholicism” and brought with me the love of Christ and the love of the Bible.

God be with you in your honesty.
 
However, assent does NOT mean that you must understand or even agree with it.
Assent means belief in what is proposed based on the authority of who is proposing it. Belief means thinking that what is proposed is true (“agreeing with it”). One need not understand what is proposed with much depth, but it is essential that one agree with what is proposed, otherwise one says either that what is proposed by the Church is not actually proposed, or that the Church is wrong. If one says the Church is wrong, then one must either say that God is wrong, or that God does not speak through the Church in matters of faith and morals when the Church teaches definitively. :confused:

Part of faith is believing whatever God says. This includes what the Church teaches definitively, since He promised to keep Her from error in the ways you described.

“I will say the white I see is black if the hierarchical Church so defines it.” -St. Ignatius Loyola
 
Can anyone expand on this?
You’re absolutely on to something there.

We have documented history of bishops, apostolic succession, Eucharist, and even the authoritative church in Rome from the first century onward.

As previously mentioned, the RCC has never chosen schism and has maintained its dogmas.

Matthew 28- all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Go therefore, and makes disciples of all nations…and I will be with you even unto the end of the age
 
There is a big difference between not understanding or perhaps having some reservations about this or that teaching of the Catholic Church and openly defying the Church’s teachings by demanding that She change Her teachings.

This last month has been a revelation to me learning that there are actually false Catholic organizations created by people like Soros which are designed to be in direct opposition to Church teachings.

It never dawned on me that there are people who claim to be Catholics who are specifically trained - and are more than willing - to rebel against and destroy the Church.

I realize now that I have been duped by these people by thinking that they were sincere people and were simply on a journey toward Christ.

P.S. I have far more respect for those who honestly disagree and with integrity withdraw from the Church than for those who stay in and cause trouble.
 
This last month has been a revelation to me learning that there are actually false Catholic organizations created by people like Soros which are designed to be in direct opposition to Church teachings.
By Archbishop Charles Chaput, O.F.M. Cap. • Posted October 13, 2016

(emphasis mine)

Back in 2008, in the weeks leading up to the Obama-McCain presidential election, two young men visited me in Denver. They were from Catholics United, a group describing itself as committed to social justice issues. They voiced great concern at the manipulative skill of Catholic agents for the Republican Party. And they hoped my brother bishops and I would resist identifying the Church with single-issue and partisan (read: abortion)politics.

It was an interesting experience. Both men were obvious flacks for the Obama campaign and the Democratic Party — creatures of a political machine, not men of the Church; less concerned with Catholic teaching than with its influence. And presumably (for them) bishops were dumb enough to be used as tools, or at least prevented from helping the other side.

Yet these two young men not only equaled but surpassed their Republican cousins in the talents of servile partisan hustling. Thanks to their work, and activists like them, American Catholics helped to elect an administration that has been the most stubbornly unfriendly to religious believers, institutions, concerns and liberty in generations.

I never saw either young man again. The cultural damage done by the current White House has — apparently — made courting America’s bishops unnecessary.

But bad can always get worse. I’m thinking, of course, of the contemptuously anti- Catholic emails exchanged among members of the Clinton Democratic presidential campaign team and released this week by WikiLeaks. A sample: Sandy Newman, president of Voices for Progress, emailed John Podesta, now the head of Hillary Clinton’s campaign, to ask about whether “the bishops opposing contraceptive coverage” could be the tinder for a revolution. “There needs to be a Catholic Spring, in which Catholics themselves demand the end of a middle ages [sic] dictatorship,” Newman writes.

Of course, Newman added, “this idea may just reveal my total lack of understanding of the Catholic church, the economic power it can bring to bear against nuns and priests who count on it for their maintenance.” Still, he wondered, how would one “plant the seeds of a revolution”? John Podesta replied that “We created Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good to organize for a moment like this . . . likewise Catholics United” (emphasis added).

Another Clinton-related email, from John Halpin of the Center for American Progress, mocks Catholics in the so-called conservative movement, especially converts: “They must be attracted to the systematic thought and severely backwards gender relations and must be totally unaware of Christian democracy.” In a follow-up, he adds “They can throw around ‘Thomistic’ thought and ‘subsidiarity’ and sound sophisticated because no one knows what . . . they’re talking about.”

On the evening these WikiLeaks emails were released, I received the following angry email myself, this one from a nationally respected (non-Catholic) attorney experienced in Church-state affairs:

“I was deeply offended by the [Clinton team] emails, which are some of the worst bigotry by a political machine I have seen. [A] Church has an absolute right to protect itself when under attack as a faith and Church by civil political forces. That certainly applies here …

“Over the last eight years there has been strong evidence that the current administration, with which these people share values, has been very hostile to religious organizations. Now there is clear proof that this approach is deliberate and will accelerate if these actors have any continuing, let alone louder, say in government.

“These bigots are actively strategizing how to shape Catholicism not to be Catholic or consistent with Jesus’ teachings, but to be the ‘religion’ they want. They are, at the very core, trying to turn religion to their secular view of right and wrong consistent with their politics. This is fundamentally why the Founders left England and demanded that government not have any voice in religion. Look where we are now. We have political actors trying to orchestrate a coup to destroy Catholic values, and they even analogize their takeover to a coup in the Middle East, which amplifies their bigotry and hatred of the Church. I had hoped I would never see this day —a day like so many dark days in Eastern Europe that led to the death of my [Protestant minister]great grandfather at the hands of communists who also hated and wanted to destroy religion.”

Of course it would be wonderful for the Clinton campaign to repudiate the content of these ugly WikiLeaks emails. All of us backward-thinking Catholics who actually believe what Scripture and the Church teach would be so very grateful.

In the meantime, a friend describes the choice facing voters in November this way: A vulgar, boorish lout and disrespecter of women, with a serious impulse control problem; or a scheming, robotic liar with a lifelong appetite for power and an entourage riddled with anti-Catholic bigots.

In a nation where “choice” is now the unofficial state religion, the menu for dinner is remarkably small.
 
There is a big difference between not understanding or perhaps having some reservations about this or that teaching of the Catholic Church and openly defying the Church’s teachings by demanding that She change Her teachings.

This last month has been a revelation to me learning that there are actually false Catholic organizations created by people like Soros which are designed to be in direct opposition to Church teachings.

It never dawned on me that there are people who claim to be Catholics who are specifically trained - and are more than willing - to rebel against and destroy the Church.

I realize now that I have been duped by these people by thinking that they were sincere people and were simply on a journey toward Christ.

P.S. I have far more respect for those who honestly disagree and with integrity withdraw from the Church than for those who stay in and cause trouble.
Well do keep in mind that not everyone who stays and tries to change the RCC from within does so with any malice. Rather I’d say it’s a lack of understanding that the RCC is not able to change. I myself long hoped the RCC would change on a great number of issues and positions, both theological and social. It was only through my own investigations of the RCC that I learned that she wasn’t capable of changing on many of the things I believe she’s wrong on and why she can’t change, and thus I finally left rather than hypocritically continuing to call myself a Catholic. But many either haven’t come to that realization, or have had it so ingrained in their minds that they accept that they can’t leave the RCC, that they don’t do so and remain behind to try and effect change to the Church, again without malice.
 
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