Unable to cross arms at communion

[joeybaggz]

Well okay then Judge Joey Baggs.

I guess I’m gonna go to hell for giving people suggestions and wishing to see the Church purified.

No, what hopefully will happen is this. You, and st.Purl, and AlbertDerGrosse and others with your position will come into contact with persons like myself who disagree with your stance and arguments. The ideas clash, and from that clash, comes a synthesis that hopefully creates a situation more amenable to both sides. It is a microcosm of the debate between Francis and Cardinal Burke and his faction in the debate over something like communion for those in irregular marriages, for example. The progressive and conservative sides must clash, and to arrive at a conclusion (in this case at the Vatican level,in the end it is the working of the Holy Spirit) both sides need each other.

In the case of this discussion about something as minor as a blessing at Communion, the same dynamic is at work. Your side, the ultra conservative isn’t totally right. OTOH, my progressive leaning, isn’t totally right either. Hopefully, a medium ground that satisfies everyone might be reached.

And sometimes in discussions between conservative and progressive, some earth gets scorched.

 

[VeryBlessed]

To me it’s beautiful that people who can’t receive go forward. They are actively seeking a personal touch from God! They are also showing profound respect by openly acknowledging the significance of what is happening, and by submitting to the rules they know they are somehow violating. And I am saddened by the statement that a non-priest can’t give a blessing. I say “God bless you” at the end of nearly every interaction I have with strangers - am I wasting my words, is no real blessing conveyed? I think not.

 

[Mtdobbs]

I have found things written by different bishops , conferences or dioceses but no specific document they all use.

Here’s one:

Even though some in the assembly may not receive ‘sacramental’ Communion, all are united in some way by the Holy Spirit. The Traditional idea of spiritual communion is an important one to remember and re-affirm. The invitation often given at Mass to those who may not receive sacramental communion — for example, children before their first communion and adults who are not Catholics — to receive a ‘blessing’ at the moment of Communion emphasizes that a deep spiritual communion is possible even when we do not share together the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ” (the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales)

Meaning that I haven’t found a document that says each bishop or conference can decide, just that different bishops, dioceses or conferences allow at and the Vatican doesn’t seem to come down on them for it.

“The question of imparting blessings during the distribution of Holy Communion is an important matter of significant confusion. It must be made clear that while clerics have the faculty to impart blessings upon individuals on behalf of the Church, it is not appropriate for a member of the laity to attempt to bless someone in the same manner.”

Most Reverend Kevin C. Rhoades - Bishop of Fort Wayne – South Bend

“At Communion time, the Lutheran Bishops approached the celebrant. They wished, by means of an agreed gesture, to demonstrate their desire for that time when we, Catholics and Lutherans, will be able to share the same Eucharist, and they wished to receive the celebrant’s blessing. With love I blessed them.”

• Saint John Paul 2 during a special event
  encyclical “Ut Unum Sint,” no. 72

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

The ideas clash, and from that clash, comes a synthesis that hopefully creates a situation more amenable to both sides.

That’ll only happen when you drop the hysterics like “Catholic Taliban” and “Guardians of Orthodoxy”, and your “won’t somebody PUHLEASE think of the children!?” I can’t speak for others, but I had no problem having a civil discussion with individuals here who disagreed with me. That’s because they did so maturely.

 

[QwertyGirl]

And above all, because there is simply no need for the practice.

How do you know the needs of other people? Maybe they have a need you don’t understand.

 

[yankeesouth]

Lol the ol’ WWJD. Funny how the answer always seems to have Jesus conforming to the opinion of the one asking the question.

Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commandments.

The congregation for divine worship has written in answer to a dubia on the question.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Meaning that I haven’t found a document that says each bishop or conference can decide, just that different bishops, dioceses or conferences allow at and the Vatican doesn’t seem to come down on them for it.

That’s been my impression as well, which is why you’re likely to see different strokes for different, erm… dioceses. For most bishops (and priests) it’s not likely a hill they’d care to die on and I can’t blame them.

When push comes to shove, if it’s licit in your diocese/parish, then it’s licit. If it isn’t, it isn’t. I personally don’t think there’s any benefit to it that outweighs the risks, but that’s why I stopped going up when I was still in RCIA, and why I still remain in my pew if for some reason I’m not properly disposed to receive.

 

[Hereiam]

Isn’t that correct teaching? No Catholic MUST come up in the communion line to receive a blessing?

Ah, but what might be even worse might be telling them they CANNOT reveive a blessing.

 

[Mtdobbs]

I did find this

“At Communion time, the Lutheran Bishops approached the celebrant. They wished, by means of an agreed gesture, to demonstrate their desire for that time when we, Catholics and Lutherans, will be able to share the same Eucharist, and they wished to receive the celebrant’s blessing. With love I blessed them.”

Saint John Paul 2 during a special ceremony
encyclical “Ut Unum Sint,” no. 72
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...ments/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint.html

On this special occasion, at communion time, Saint John Paul 2 blessed the Lutheran Bishops who couldn’t receive communion. He didnt just bless them at the end of Mass.

 

[Hereiam]

I defer to my statement on the difficulty in reasoning with a psuedo canonist.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Can you provide me with a little more context please? What was the occasion? Was it an ecumenical service that just so happened to include communion? Were these Lutheran bishops in choir or were they in the nave with everyone else? Was this in some way formalized in the celebration?

I hope you can agree that Bishops of another denomination as guests at a (presumably) ecumenical service is quite a different beast than children, non-Catholics, or undisposed Catholics at a regular Sunday Mass.

 

[Mtdobbs]

1. This is true above all for the European countries, in which these divisions first appeared, and for North America. In this regard, without wishing to minimize the other visits, I would especially mention those within Europe which took me twice to Germany, in November 1980 and in April-May 1987; to the United Kingdom (England, Scotland and Wales) in May-June 1982; to Switzerland in June 1984; and to the Scandinavian and Nordic countries (Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Iceland) in June 1989. In an atmosphere of joy, mutual respect, Christian solidarity and prayer I met so very many brothers and sisters, all making a committed effort to be faithful to the Gospel. Seeing all this has been for me a great source of encouragement. We experienced the Lord’s presence among us.

In this respect I would like to mention one demonstration dictated by fraternal charity and marked by deep clarity of faith which made a profound impression on me. I am speaking of the Eucharistic celebrations at which I presided in Finland and Sweden during my journey to the Scandinavian and Nordic countries. At Communion time, the Lutheran Bishops approached the celebrant. They wished, by means of an agreed gesture, to demonstrate their desire for that time when we, Catholics and Lutherans, will be able to share the same Eucharist, and they wished to receive the celebrant’s blessing. With love I blessed them. The same gesture, so rich in meaning, was repeated in Rome at the Mass at which I presided in Piazza Farnese, on the sixth centenary of the canonization of Saint Birgitta of Sweden, on 6 October 1991.

I have encountered similar sentiments on the other side of the ocean also: in Canada, in September 1984; and particularly in September 1987 in the United States, where one notices a great ecumenical openness. This was the case, to give one example, of the ecumenical meeting held at Columbia, South Carolina on 11 September 1987. The very fact that such meetings regularly take place between the Pope and these brothers and sisters whose Churches and Ecclesial Communities originate in the Reformation is important in itself. I am deeply grateful for the warm reception which I have received both from the leaders of the various Communities and from the Communities as a whole. From this standpoint, I consider significant the ecumenical celebration of the Word held in Columbia on the theme of the family.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

I see. Thank you. So it’s as I suspected. Pope St. John Paul II was visiting another country during their patronal feast and a significant number of the state church’s bishops were in attendance. I’m not sure it’s a good idea to make a norm out of an exceptional circumstance. That’s actually how we end up in these problems to begin with.

Edit: By the way sorry for sending you on a fool’s errand. As soon as I posted I realized you provided a link and I was able to find the context myself anyway. I’m sick at home and doped up on medicine. I don’t know what’s going on. LOL

 

[Mtdobbs]

I agree that bishops of other denominations, as guests, is different. But, it does say a lot that a pope would bless non communicants of another religion but we are arguing that non communicants of our own faith cant receive

I know its different though lol I’m just in a mood haha

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

I hope I haven’t given the impression that my qualms with blessings at communion time is a matter of some grave injustice to the liturgy or something. It isn’t. There isn’t anything innately wrong with doing so. I find the practice as it’s done at your regular ole parish on a regular ole Sunday to be problematic for the reasons I’ve mentioned above. I can’t imagine Lutheran bishops accidentally being given communion at a Papal Mass, or accidentally being blessed by a well-meaning but wrong EMHC at such a Mass (Are there even EMHCs at Papal Masses?). I have in fact seen the same done to regular ole people at regular ole parishes.

 

[Mtdobbs]

I had no negative impressions from our conversation! I understand that in can present as problematic and my solution is far from perfect. One thing I have absolutely found in all of the reading ive done on this is that EMHCs are absolutely not to give a “blessing” or “pseudo blessing”.

I actually have person experience with this, as I went up to an EMHC to receive a blessing before, not knowing the rule and she denied me haha

I was kind of embarrassed until I found out why she denied me. She knew she wasn’t able to do what I was asking. Points for well trained EMHCs!

 

[hope]

I have discovered countries other than the US do things like this. However, I did find This Lay people, within the context of Holy Mass, are unable to confer blessings. These blessings, rather, are the competence of the priest (cf. Ecclesia de Mysterio, Notitiae 34 (15 Aug. 1997), art. 6, § 2; Canon 1169, § 2; and Roman Ritual De Benedictionibus (1985), n. 18). My pastor concurs with this. Lay people in the context of mass are unable, meaning they may go through the motions but there is no blessing.
Personally I would like to see this changes but it isn’t up to me to change it.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Simply place one index finger across your lips vertically. This is a common signal you desire a blessing. It’s wonderful you participate this way. Blessings are quite real and efficacious.

 

[Wampa]

It’s really not [a valid option]. The congregation for divine worship has written in answer to a dubia on the question.

Can someone provide a link to this (maybe @1ke or @yankeesouth, since you both referred to it)? I’ve been googling for awhile and I’m not seeing a definitive answer. I keep seeing reference to a 2008 CDW letter (Protocol No. 930/08/L) as the answer, but as Fr. Edward McNamara puts it in ‘Blessings in Lieu of Communion’, that letter shows only that “the Holy See is tending toward a negative view of the practice,” but nothing as definitive as being presented here. The letter itself was not binding and the CDW was still studying the issue and merely giving some observations. As Fr. McNamara goes on to describe the current situation (as of Dec. 2016):

“Little has changed since that time with respect to universal law. The legal situation of the usage is still murky, with bishops making statements falling on both sides of the argument. There would, however, appear to be a tendency in recent documents to discourage the practice or at least show some hesitancy.”

He goes on to present the varying policies of six different dioceses on the topic.

I find myself dealing with this situation and I’d love to find a definitive answer!

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi. Thank you for honouring the Holy Communion by not receiving it. God will honour you for it.

Please be reminded that there may be some parishes that do not give blessing for non-Communicants but there are lots of parishes that do.

I just want you to understand that if anybody refuse to give you blessing, that’s because they do not practice it at their parish and therefore please do not feel discouraged or rejected.

In parishes where blessing is given for non-Communicants, you did the right thing by shaking your head indicating that you are not receiving. It is not rude at all. I am an EHMC at my parish. I feel very encouraged indeed to see the reverence of people towards the Holy Eucharist.

Usually we do not see adults coming for blessing, perhaps that’s why they could mistake you for receiving. Cross your other arm on your chest, probably they will understand that you do not receive. You could just receive the blessing.

God bless you.