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Pitcharan
Guest
Salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22c)
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mardukm
Guest
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Pitcharan
Guest
I think we all are Jews in the true sense of the word.
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Zackeera
Guest
Let’s turn to scripture and see what it says.
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 6:11
“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Titus 3: 4-7
“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly* through Jesus Christ our Saviour*;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
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Sirach2
Guest
Dear Zack,
Before replying, I looked at a number of your posts to understand you better. What I sense here is strong irritation as demonstrated by your “shouting” in the use of your format. You are not the first nonCatholic who has come here with the self-commission to teach Catholics, and you won’t be the last.
What you fail to understand is that we do not place our faith solely in personal interpretations of the Bible, but we have complete fidelity and trust in the Church’s guidance and infallible interpretation of the Bible as promised to us by Jesus. Not only that, but we believe fully in Divine Tradition passed down throught Jesus’s teachings to the apostles. Jn. 21:25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”
Unlike the thousands of denominations who have varying interpretations from their many founders or pastors, and which changes from religion to religion, we have a solemn Authority that guarantees what we believe is true, and our faith will not be challenged by nonCatholics who use sola scriptura.
Since you are new, it is presumed that you have read the forum rules, but just in case you neglected to do so, I pray you will consider strongly these two:
4. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
5. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
The tone in your posts does not appear to be one that is trying to understand, but rather one that is trying to teach, and becoming somewhat overt in expressing it.
May your stay with Catholic Answers be pleasant and informative.
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Zackeera
Guest
Sorry about the shouting! I should have previewed my response before posting and didn’t realize how large the lettering was. I looked for a way to edit it but couldn’t find it, so unfortunately it’ll have to remain that way, I guess.Dear Zack,
Before replying, I looked at a number of your posts to understand you better. What I sense here is strong irritation as demonstrated by your “shouting” in the use of your format. You are not the first nonCatholic who has come here with the self-commission to teach Catholics, and you won’t be the last.
I do understand that your faith is not placed solely in personal interpretations of the Bible, but I hope that you will welcome scripture that is presented as it stands on its own, without my personal interpretation
Points well taken…I am a teacher at heart but will try to make my contributions more conversational rather than instructional. That takes extra time, but I’m okay with that.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Zackeera this approach appears somewhat disingenuous.I do understand that your faith is not placed solely in personal interpretations of the Bible, but I hope that you will welcome scripture that is presented as it stands on its own, without my personal interpretation
“As it stands on its own” is a particularly Protestant approach to the Bible as if there is a 100% clear and unambiguous meaning/understanding of what the author meant and that it should apply to any question we throw at it - even if the authors were addressing different questions in their writings. Many questions we ask today were never contemplated in their lifetime. In fact some questions we ask today could not have been understood by those authors even if we went back and time to ask them.
“Salvation is FROM Christ and THROUGH the Church” is readily acceptable as standard Catholic Church teaching. If the Bible really does contradict that then the Bible is “wrong”.
Protestants may have a deep problem with that logic but Catholics do not really.
Of course what we mean by “the Bible is wrong” is that it has not been understood correctly (or is a non-sequitor and not relevant to the modern question we are throwing at it).
We have no great emotional investment in reading Bible verses “as they stand.” Of course that is a starting point; but few Catholics are naiive enough to believe that the the starting point has to be anywhere close to the ending point - especially if tradition/teaching suggests otherwise.
So, in short, your approach isn’t going to go anywhere solid.
The better approach is to critique how Catholics understand “Church” in the above statement. Many Catholics are poorly informed re the relationship between Christ and his Church. To say that “The Church” and the historical Roman Catholic Church (and church’s in union with it) are one and the same thing is, in my understanding, a deeply flawed mistake by many Catholics.
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Sirach2
Guest
Blue Horizon:
If we revert to the old argument, which came first, the chicken or the egg, it may be grasped a little better if our Protestant friends consider these truths.
Truly spoken.
If we revert to the old argument, which came first, the chicken or the egg, it may be grasped a little better if our Protestant friends consider these truths.
- Jesus’s first priority was to establish a Church prior to his death.
- He assured his apostles that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
- During the 40 days after his resurrection, he prepared them for their mission of spreading the gospel, helping them understand his teachings more perfectly.
- The Holy Spirit was his most important gift to help them accomplish that.
- He gave no instruction to first commit all of his teachings to writing in the form we now know as the bible before beginning this mission. “He who hears YOU, hears ME.”
- The teaching was transmitted orally - without a bible.
- We know these truths as Divine Tradition given to the apostles, many of which were not committed to writing for several decades.
- Salvation is from Christ, through his Church, as he ordained.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark P. Shea
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=121&ed=1
Unam Sanctam is the sort of document that gives our Protestant brothers and sisters a real jolt, primarily because it looks at first blush as though it teaches that Catholics cannot have Protestant brothers and sisters. Written by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, this papal bull concludes with a shocking dogmatic definition:
We declare, say, define and pronounce, that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
The average modern reader concludes that these words mean: “We know exactly where the Church both is and is not. It’s in the visible Catholic communion and only members of the visible Catholic Church go to heaven.”
(follow the link to continue reading)
The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm
One of the most controversial papal documents ever released was the bull, Unam Sanctam, issued in 1302 by Pope Boniface VIII. Today the most controversial part of the bull is the following infallible pronouncement: “Now, therefore, we declare, say, define, and pronounce that for every human creature it is altogether necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff.”
(follow the link to continue reading)
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Sirach2
Guest
Randy,
Neither of your links appear to be in working order.
Neither of your links appear to be in working order.
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Sirach2
Guest
Randy,
I found the links with a little help from google. I think Mark Shea had some excellent points to share with us on this topic. Kinda long, though. catholicity.com/commentary/shea/00059.html
And James Akin’s article is here - also very long. I haven’t read it yet.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3447
I found the links with a little help from google. I think Mark Shea had some excellent points to share with us on this topic. Kinda long, though. catholicity.com/commentary/shea/00059.html
And James Akin’s article is here - also very long. I haven’t read it yet.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3447
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Sirach2
Guest
I just finished reading the second link from Jimmy Akin. Of the two links, I found this to be a very thorough, excellent presentation on Unum Sanctam, tying it to the present teaching of the Church.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
I will again post the following:
I will again post the following:
“For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.”
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Unam Sanctam, Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302
Suppose a Conqueror lands on a previously unexplored continent, and annexes the whole of it under the banner of His King. Settlers of the Kingdom arrive. The Conqueror then leaves a Governor to take care of the settlers. However, there are natives in that continent. Since these natives lived in the continent before the Conqueror and the settlers arrived, logically these natives automatically become citizens of the kingdom, and thus under the jurisdiction of the Governor.
This is the case also with the Catholic Church. Since Jesus Christ “died for all” humans, all humans, even though they do not know it, can be bestowed with saving grace through means outside the Catholic Church. This was affirmed by the encyclical Sublimus Dei (“We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge”) which echoes the words of Jesus Christ Himself: "“I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice.” (John 10:16a)
However, there is a caveat here. Since all humans can be bestowed with saving grace outside the usual means of the Catholic Church and thus become the Lord’s sheep, all of the human race must necessarily be under the authority of the Pope.
Why? In continuing the above passage, Jesus Christ also said, “There will be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16b), the One Shepherd being Jesus Christ. And yet it was only to St. Peter whom Jesus said: “Feed my lambs…Tend my sheep…Feed my sheep.” (John 21:15, 16, 17). Therefore, Jesus left to St. Peter’s, and his successors’, care all of His sheep, in the fold (formally Catholic) or not.
In other words, each and every one human creature in the whole world is a Catholic in one sense or another.
And oh yes, another caveat: each and every Person in heaven is a Catholic
God bless us all.
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