Unanswered prayers - these can't simply be "God's plan"

[DarkLight]

The line I’ve always heard is that if God doesn’t answer our prayers, it’s because He has a better plan for us. And that makes sense if we’re talking about prayers like getting a job in a certain field, or something. But there a lot of things out there where to say they’re God’s plan seems simply to make God a monster.

I am not the only one out there, I’m sure, who remembers long unanswered prayers simply for a chance to get away from abuse for a little bit. Or to be able to see a doctor - not for medicine to work, but simply to have the chance to see someone appropriate to your condition in the first place. I don’t think we can really credibly say these things are part of God’s plan.

What is our answer then? Why does God seem to leave us to situations where it’s so obviously inhumane to let them go on? I feel that we need more answer to these situations than “God has a plan and answers in His time.”

(As a side note: I feel like people often suggest therapy as though someone who goes through therapy just sort of…stops thinking about these things. Or at least never ever mentions them in public. Therapy has its place, but answering theological questions isn’t one of them, and I think it speaks poorly of our faith if we try to push difficulties like these off into a “mental health” box.)

 

[CRV]

The line I’ve always heard is that if God doesn’t answer our prayers, it’s because He has a better plan for us.

I would understand that as God saying no to what was asked because He does have something better to give us.

Because in the Bible He says in Luke 11:11-12 " And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? Or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion?" as well as in Matthew 7:9-11 " Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone? 10 Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent? 11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?"

they’re God’s plan seems simply to make God a monster.

Two things come to mind here - 1. We tend to ask for things we need in this world (which is good), and our Father knows these things and will grant them if it be His Will for us, but His focus is on our greater good - eternity with Him. So while the thing we ask for e.g. a job in a particular field, if that would not be in our best interest, but a job in a different field may be better for us in various ways especially spiritually, then this second job is the one He will grant us as it is in our best interest. We can only see so far ahead - God in His Wisdom sees ALL. So what may look like to us to be the best thing, may not turn out to be so in time to come for various reasons.

1. In regards to your comment of praying for a chance to get away from abuse for a little bit, that is much harder to understand. Why does God permit suffering? His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Does this satisfy? No, not really especially when you are the one suffering. But as we are part of the Body of Christ, and think of how Christs’ body suffered in His passion, then it follows that we suffer too, as God takes this suffering and uses it for the salvation (possibly of ourselves) of souls. This is why if we unite our sufferings to Christ’s sufferings they have merit, if we don’t then the suffering is as the world sees it - pointless.

continued below

 

[CRV]

continuing on

Or to be able to see a doctor - not for medicine to work, but simply to have the chance to see someone appropriate to your condition in the first place.

We get impatient and want things now and are not good at waiting. But God does have a plan, and things need to take place in the order God ordains in the time He ordains according to His Will. So whilst we search and pray for us to find this doctor, we have to trust and hope and continue to pray. If this doctor we so hope for does not come along, then we have to accept this is God’s Will for us, accept He knows best and Trust Him. (In 20 yrs I had only found three doctors who knew about my condition until my current doctor I am under now. So whilst these others knew and did their best to help me, there currently is no cure and not very effective treatment. So I accept this is my life and God’s Will for me, and each morning offer everything up to Him.)

May I suggest reading these books as I found them quite helpful -

1. Why Must suffer? A Book Of Light and Consolation by Rev F.J. Remler, C.M.
2. Abandonment to Divine Providence Jean-Pierre de Caussade (a thinner book of only 114 pages. OR
   Self-Abandonment to Divine Providence by Fr. J.P. de Caussde, S.J. featuring the Letters of Fr. de Caussade on the Practice of Self-Abandonment 449 pages
3. Providence God’s Loving care for man and the need for confidence in Almighty God by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
4. Consoling Thoughts of St. Francis de Sales On Trials of an Interior Life, Infirmities of Soul and Body, etc.

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

This is somewhat a previously debated topic, the problem of evil. How could a good god allow evil?

How to Answer the Problem of Evil | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[Wesrock]

I don’t think we can really credibly say these things are part of God’s plan.

What is our answer then? Why does God seem to leave us to situations where it’s so obviously inhumane to let them go on?

Well, that seems to be part of what’s going on. The divine isn’t human, is it?

 

[DarkLight]

We get impatient and want things now and are not good at waiting. But God does have a plan, and things need to take place in the order God ordains in the time He ordains according to His Will. So whilst we search and pray for us to find this doctor, we have to trust and hope and continue to pray. If this doctor we so hope for does not come along, then we have to accept this is God’s Will for us, accept He knows best and Trust Him. (In 20 yrs I had only found three doctors who knew about my condition until my current doctor I am under now. So whilst these others knew and did their best to help me, there currently is no cure and not very effective treatment. So I accept this is my life and God’s Will for me, and each morning offer everything up to Him.)

In my case, there were lots of doctors that could have treated what I had. It was very simple. I was just too poor and didn’t have anyone willing to help out there. So I got to go without care because it wasn’t yet bad enough to be a 911 level emergency.

This is somewhat a previously debated topic, the problem of evil. How could a good god allow evil?

How to Answer the Problem of Evil | Catholic Answers

I’m well aware. That said:
(1) Frankly, those sorts of arguments are usually used as a reason why utilitarianism is false, so using them to justify God just sort of falls flat.
(2) It’s not much of an answer to a personal God who is supposed to be personally answer our prayers to appeal to sort of overall state of the universe. It treats people as just cogs in a large machine of the world.
(3) It still doesn’t answer the question of prayer very well. If God’s going to pick things however anyway, why are we asking for things?

 

[Fourandfive]

In the “Our Father,” Jesus taught us yo pray “Thy will be done.” I was taught that when we pray, we aren’t trying to bend God’s will to ours, but we are given an opportunity to have our will changed to match that of God. The more we can bring our own will in line with God, the happier we will be.

 

[CRV]

In my case, there were lots of doctors that could have treated what I had. It was very simple. I was just too poor and didn’t have anyone willing to help out there. So I got to go without care because it wasn’t yet bad enough to be a 911 level emergency.

I’m very sorry that happened to you.

In my own situation I do not have private health cover/insurance so I too don’t have access to various treatments simply due to cost. But it is what it is. These are the circumstances of my life. There are others worse off than me and yes there are others better off than me. I am where God has placed me as well as due to decisions I have made throughout my life.

The more we can bring our own will in line with God, the happier we will be.

So true. The difficulty is conforming our wills to Gods’ Will!

Edited to add:- Luke 22:42-43 " 42 Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done. 43 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony, he prayed the longer."

So the Second Person of the Holy Trinity conforms His Will to His Fathers’ Will, then how can I do less? Note that God does give grace to accept the situation by sending His angel to strengthen Jesus (us too).

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I don’t have an answer that hasn’t been said above.
So I’m sending you a cyber hug and the assurance I’ll remember you in my prayers ray:t2:

 

[DarkLight]

In the “Our Father,” Jesus taught us yo pray “Thy will be done.” I was taught that when we pray, we aren’t trying to bend God’s will to ours, but we are given an opportunity to have our will changed to match that of God. The more we can bring our own will in line with God, the happier we will be.

I think my point is more - I see no plausible line where things like abuse of children can be claimed to be “God’s will.” Frankly I have a pretty hard time seeing how trauma symptoms (which I couldn’t get treated - see above) bring anyone closer to God either. Mostly they seem to disrupt the relationship with random panic attacks that meant a lot of times I couldn’t pray or do anything religious.

There has to be more answer than “the world is better that way.” A human is not a cog to make the machine of the world function better, where you can simply burn out and replace parts if that’s the best way.

 

[CRV]

I see no plausible line where things like abuse of children can be claimed to be “God’s will.”

Whilst God does not ‘will’ evil, He does permit us to commit evil - because He gave us free will and will not override our free will (otherwise we would not be free).
What is God’s Will? Part II of II: His Permissive Will Taking Up the Cross

God’s Will

 

[DarkLight]

Whilst God does not ‘will’ evil, He does permit us to commit evil - because He gave us free will and will not override our free will (otherwise we would not be free).
What is God’s Will? Part II of II: His Permissive Will Taking Up the Cross

God’s Will

Then if he does not override our free will, why tell us to pray? It rather seems then He is intent on giving us false hope. I always found the free will argument falls quite flat against the reality of what we can perpetrate against others who don’t have any useful exercise of their free will.

There is also the issue that in many cases it is not just free will. From my case, yes there was free will - but there were also a large amount of people who just didn’t know. A lot of things as a child I simply didn’t know. It would hardly be overriding anyone’s free will to arrange things for someone to get knowledge they might otherwise have had - and it’s frankly ridiculous to blame free will for the number of things people do because they don’t have the chance to get the right information.

I’m very familiar with the standard replies (probably in more detail than you’ll find in an internet article, CA or otherwise), I just find that when put together they seem like a sort of hasty patchwork rather than a genuine, in-depth theological response. We’re not fideists, so I don’t see any reason to force myself to be satisfied with that.

 

[CRV]

why tell us to pray? It rather seems then He is intent on giving us false hope.

Even our earthly parents know we need food, clothing, health care etc. and yet we are expected to ask - "May I have a biscuit please/May I sleep over at Marys’ please?’ - so does our Father in heaven. Because children and we are Gods’ children, ask their parents for things. Because God is in control and not us. Because like any relationship we communicate our needs to the other, so it is with God. Prayer is our communication with Him.

Why does He want this when He already knows what we are going to ask for anyway? To build trust in His Goodness and Divine Providence to provide for us. To increase our faith in Him - God is always faithful to us - it is we who are unfaithful to Him.

It isn’t false hope, our prayers are always answered - they may just not be as we want them answered or get the answer we were wanting/hoping for/expecting, in the way we were wanting it answered or when we were wanting it to be answered.

I always found the free will argument falls quite flat against the reality of what we can perpetrate against others who don’t have any useful exercise of their free will.

But that is exactly what using free will for evil entails. The very fact of the reality of what we can perpetrate against others does demonstrate free will in a situation. One is misusing it to dominate the other (in whatever form that may take). The fact that one is misusing their freewill -(thus God is permitting this misuse of the will) - and the other is denied the use of theirs by the aggressor - doesn’t negate the free will agrument.

Why God permits some things to happen to us, is a mystery and I am not saying this to nullify whatever has happened to you, but there are things in this world that will only become clear at the last judgement. Why does an innocent child get cancer? Why are innocent people murdered? Why are there people suffering and starving in the world when those in first world countries have an abundance of food. I could go on, but I’m sure you can think of a lot more examples.

but there were also a large amount of people who just didn’t know.

continued below

 

[CRV]

continued

Then how can you fault people if there was no way they could possibly know? Abuse is usually kept well hidden and signs are not always obvious to outsiders.

A lot of things as a child I simply didn’t know.

And yes, children trust that adults won’t hurt them, and yes children are naive and innocent. Adults are not.

It would hardly be overriding anyone’s free will to arrange things for someone to get knowledge they might otherwise have had

True. Why didn’t God make it so? I don’t have an answer for you I’m sorry. And yes, the standard reply is His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. We don’t always have answers to why things are permitted to happen, except they do as part of His Permissive Will.

The Problem of Evil

Reason/thinking/logic can only get you so far - that’s when Faith comes into it. And Faith is a gift from God. I pray everyday that God will increase my Faith and Trust in Him, because I struggle with some things in life too.

I think there is a limit to understanding things from a human perspective as God is beyond our ability, as humans are limited but God is not. Ecclesiastes 8:16-17

I’m wondering if as well as the hurt you’ve suffered, there is anger and resentment towards God in this, or perhaps even feeling betrayed and let down by God. If so, then there isn’t any thing I can say that will heal this or satisfy you. The best I can do is pray for you.

God bless.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m always hesitant to reply to posts from people who are struggling with some sort of past abuse or family issue, because there is a great potential for either the person to whom I’m trying to respond, or one of their friends, to post back to whatever I say calling me insensitive, unhelpful, etc. This has happened to me a great many times, including when I tried to respond once before to one of your threads. Nevertheless, I will try to add some things:

1. Prayer is not just about asking and getting, it is about forming a relationship with God even if the “answer” is a “no answer” or a “wait and hang in there longer” answer.
2. There are a number of saints and holy people who suffered through severe abuse or neglect as children. It’s unlikely that they were all perfectly resigned to their fates as children, regardless of how their stories are presented today. I’m sure they had times of misery, of feeling abandoned by God, of wondering why they had to suffer so much when other children seemed to have nice parents and happy lives. I was just reading about the seer Bruno Cornacchiola and his childhood was so miserable that it made his anger as an adult, including anger towards the Church, more understandable. What seems to be the common factor is that all these people, at some point in their lives whether young or older, realized that God loved them. It didn’t mean their past troubles and burdens all vanished, but when they started living in the love of God, they could somehow put the past in perspective and overcome it or leave it behind. They no longer wondered why God did this or God did that; either they came to some conclusion about how the situation in their case had somehow led them to a better life, or they just set it aside as being just something they went through and accept and don’t dwell upon.
3. You are now out of the bad situation and hopefully on the way to a better life, so it could be said that God did answer your prayer. Just not right when you wanted him to.

I hope this is helpful, but if not please feel free to dismiss it.

 

[Divine3]

Another book (if I might add) is

The Power of Silence: Against the Dictatorship of Noise by Cardinal Sarah…the section on evil has been a great help when it comes to the mystery of evil. To ask God for healing and to find a doctor who is competent and experienced is a normal prayer to seek an answer to. Praying for you too. And whatever the outcome, the importance of staying in relationship with God is what keeps one sane or not. :+) The greatest tool of the evil one is discouragement.

 

[CRV]

Terrific book - on my bookshelf and purchased as soon as it was out!

 

[Neithan]

Theodicy is about the best that theologians can do when faced with the problem of evil — a problem compounded by God’s hidden and “incomprehensible” silence (as Pope Benedict XVI wrote).

St. Pope John Paul II emphasized the redemptive suffering theodicy in Thomistic theology (wherein suffering is not necessarily for one’s own sins, but for the sins of others). Eleanore Stump wrote a book about it that I would really like to read: Wandering in Darkness: Narrative And The Problem Of Suffering. I’ve heard The Power of Silence by Cardinal Sarah is really good.

Alvin Plantinga wrote a famous philosophical treatise on the free-will defense (God, Freedom and Evil, 1977) that is not really a theodicy because it does not argue that there must be a greater good. This one is only if you’re really doubting the existence of God entirely, because it leaves open the question of why evil is permitted.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

My son had a very bad flu. He said, at the beginning of the flu, he prayed that the Lord heal him/ prevent the flu from happening. So my dear son asked me this exact question, “Why God allow me to get this very bad flu? I asked him early that he could have prevented this flu from becoming worse”

At the moment, the holyspirit guided me, so from nowhere I gave him this good answer:

Do you know that flu virus always mutate to a new strand very quickly (It happened that I just watched the documentary) ? He knew this fact too actually. So I said, " God wants you to have good immune systems towards these strands of viruses. God the Father always have a good plan for us, but sometimes we dont understand fully. All the things we ask Him is like a little boy asking for candies all the time. When we don’t get our candy it feels like frustrating. But its okay, we can still ask for candies, and Our Father do give us candies from time to time. It’s just not all the time. As we are more mature in faith, we will begin to ask for things inline with his plan. For example a boy ask for good education instead of a piece of candy, or some healthier food instead of candy. The Father would surely grant that prayer more often than if we ask for candies all the time".

 

[DarkLight]

I’m familiar, actually. I did do some graduate work in philosophy. Anyone with an exposure to analytic traditions will be familiar with Plantinga.

Then how can you fault people if there was no way they could possibly know? Abuse is usually kept well hidden and signs are not always obvious to outsiders.

I would say something like that objection isn’t about fault at all. It’s simply a statement that defending evil “because of free will” is only helpful in cases where a meaningfully free choice is possible. If someone is so hampered by an outside factor - such as lack of knowledge - that they can’t make a useful choice, free will becomes a poor defense.