Unanswered prayers - these can't simply be "God's plan"

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DarkLight said:
The line I’ve always heard is that if God doesn’t answer our prayers, it’s because He has a better plan for us. And that makes sense if we’re talking about prayers like getting a job in a certain field, or something. But there a lot of things out there where to say they’re God’s plan seems simply to make God a monster.

I am not the only one out there, I’m sure, who remembers long unanswered prayers simply for a chance to get away from abuse for a little bit. Or to be able to see a doctor - not for medicine to work, but simply to have the chance to see someone appropriate to your condition in the first place. I don’t think we can really credibly say these things are part of God’s plan.

What is our answer then? Why does God seem to leave us to situations where it’s so obviously inhumane to let them go on? I feel that we need more answer to these situations than “God has a plan and answers in His time.”

(As a side note: I feel like people often suggest therapy as though someone who goes through therapy just sort of…stops thinking about these things. Or at least never ever mentions them in public. Therapy has its place, but answering theological questions isn’t one of them, and I think it speaks poorly of our faith if we try to push difficulties like these off into a “mental health” box.)
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Some evils are a result of angelic and human free will.

Catechism
395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308
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If that’s the case, why bother with any of this? That just sounds like “let’s hurt people a bunch but it’s totally ok because heaven.” It strips people of any real dignity or right here on earth.
 
I find human free will a fairly meaningless response, honestly. It gives a few people outsized power, while treating many others as mere objects that don’t get a choice. And nominally free choices are so often hampered by human limits of knowledge and ability that it seems little more than blaming a blind man for not picking up the red object out of a pile.
 
DarkLight said:
(As a side note: I feel like people often suggest therapy as though someone who goes through therapy just sort of…stops thinking about these things. Or at least never ever mentions them in public. Therapy has its place, but answering theological questions isn’t one of them, and I think it speaks poorly of our faith if we try to push difficulties like these off into a “mental health” box.)
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This part hits hard. I’ve experienced a few instances, both in real life, and in these forums (from moderators) of people hastily trying to refer me to therapists and psychiatrists as though simply disagreeing with, or questioning certain matters is mentally disordered in nature.

I feel that people (particularly the ones on these forums) hastily refer irritated individuals to therapists so that they can display a veneer of concern while avoiding actual engagement.

With that said, I’ve been to several therapists and have been tested in a variety of ways (since I take my health seriously), and not once, ever, have I been diagnosed with, or even suspected of any mental illnesses, or other such problems–and yet–I’m still incredibly frustrated about God’s seeming indifference in my life, and I still have a ton of questions. 😱
 
DarkLight said:
Then if he does not override our free will, why tell us to pray?
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So that we are reminded that we can always turn to him and he will be there for us. My most common prayer when I’m facing struggles is: “lord give me the strength to get through this, so that I may better serve you”.
 
DarkLight said:
What is our answer then?
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My personal response to your dilemma goes outside the boundaries of accepted Catholic thought and I risking being flagged, but it’s the only one which has ever made any sense to me. We experience what we do because this life, and everything we face within it, is one of our own choosing. We learn best and fastest through adversity and God allows us to carry out the experiences without interference. I rely on prayer to find solace and strength but never expect intervention.
 
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DarkLight said:
I find human free will a fairly meaningless response, honestly. It gives a few people outsized power, while treating many others as mere objects that don’t get a choice. And nominally free choices are so often hampered by human limits of knowledge and ability that it seems little more than blaming a blind man for not picking up the red object out of a pile.
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It is only through grace that we rational beings have the ability to remain free from condemnation, so grace is the actual saving response. But without free will there would be no expression of charity and thus the gain of merit. It is the ability to share in the divinity of Christ that is given with free will through cooperation with grace.
 
repentant2 said:
The verse about worrying about nothing and leaving it up to God, as well as the verse about storing treasures in heaven instead of Earth come to mind when talking about bodily issues.
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Heaven is indeed greater than Earth, as we all know (1 John 4:4, Matthew 6:33), however this world, including our bodies, are absolutely important still. Remember that God created our flesh and found it good, and it was our bodies–not souls–that were formed and molded by God’s very own hands. If the world, alongside our flesh didn’t matter, God wouldn’t have created it, and Satan certainly wouldn’t try leveraging it to the extent that he has.

God Bless.
 
DarkLight said:
I think my point is more - I see no plausible line where things like abuse of children can be claimed to be “God’s will.”
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Agreed. But we live in a fallen world. God does not fix everything for us. Sin has negative effects, often times horribly negative. It’s easy to think He should, if he is a loving God. But ultimately, unless He takes away our free will, He can’t. And that free will is what makes us in the image of God. So when we use our will for sin, others suffer. We can’t blame God for that.
 
These books are so very excellent, one of them is available on Formed.org

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0898705258/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0

https://www.amazon.com/Tears-God-Fr-Benedict-Groeschel/dp/1586172891

God does not mess with free will, even the free will of abusers.

God does not abandon the abused to the abuser, Scripture tells us that even in hell we cannot escape the love of God. He is close to the brokenhearted. Christ fully experienced abuse and torture in the garden and in his Passion.

He does not stop the hand of the abuser, but, He holds the hand of the abused.
 
My dad is a preacher. He used to say that if this were the case, we ought to hit kids every day at school because hurting them teaches them things and gets them to heaven.

I also find it super cruel to tell an abused person that “God is like a parent who knows their child does not need ice cream for supper even if the child asks for it”. Safety and relief of abuse is not ice cream.
 
There is absolutely no mistake in thinking our earthly bodies have importance. We are creat man, body and soul. Unless you believe that our lives on Earth have no real importance, saying our bodies have no importance is absurd. And saying our lives here on Earth have no importance sounds like some type of nihilistic spiritualism I want no part of.
We are humans, with a level of endowed dignity that should not be understated.
 
Sometimes, when considering the problem if evil, it helps to look at an actual, albeit hypothetical situation.

Let’s say a child is abused by his father. The child prays for deliverance, the mother prays for deliverance. None appears, so is God ignoring the prayers. Well, how does God typically intravene in our world without destroying our free will? Grace. God does not force the father to quit abusing, he give the father the necessary Grace’s to quit sinning. But the father must cooperate and accept the grace. God may give the mother the necessary graces to have the strength to move out, but she has to cooperate, and accept the grace. God may be giving a third party the grace to be kind and provide assistance to the mother, but he/she has to cooperate and accept the grace. God may be answering the prayers in spades, indeed He most likely is, but ultimately everyone involved has to step up to the plate. Otherwise, sin continues, along with it’s horrible consequences on an innocent child.
 
TheLittleLady said:
I also find it super cruel to tell an abused person that “God is like a parent who knows their child does not need ice cream for supper even if the child asks for it”. Safety and relief of abuse is not ice cream.
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I might add that’s echoing an actually pretty common abusive tactic. Abusive parents often treat basic dignity as a reward the child has to earn. Or decide that their children don’t need basic care (in either the physical or psychological sense), so they can deny it like it was a bonus.
 
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DarkLight said:
I would say something like that objection isn’t about fault at all. It’s simply a statement that defending evil “because of free will” is only helpful in cases where a meaningfully free choice is possible. If someone is so hampered by an outside factor - such as lack of knowledge - that they can’t make a useful choice, free will becomes a poor defense.
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Thank you for clarifying. I understand your point. But freewill still applies to the agressor. Whilst it doesn’t apply (you’re right) to one who is hampered by an outside factor, in that as you say they can’t make a useful choice as to whether they remain or escape that situation - they do still have the option of using their free will in that they can choose to accept the situation whilst hoping and praying for things to change, or surrender their will and be overcome (mentally and spiritually).

In the example I am thinking of is prisoners of war. They are certainly being deprived of the use of their free will, but some choose to survive and not give in to despair and give up, but remain hopeful. They may withdraw into that part of themselves - in their thoughts, in which to cope. I’m also thinking of a man (can’t remember who, sorry), who was imprisoned and tortured, but he survived because he said whilst they could imprison the body, the mind was free to go where he willed.

I am sorry that I do not have a better way in which to explain what I am trying to convey regarding the person who’s being denied the choice as to what is happening. I guess it comes down to whilst they are physically being denied any choice in what occurs/what is done to them, they still have the choice/the ability to use their free will as to whether they survive mentally, emotionally and spiritually ie in how they deal with it or not.
 
God always answers our prayers.
We don’t always recognize the answer or solution.
Sometimes He answers before we ask.
The answer is usually in plane sight or it happens so fast we don’t see the moment of revelation.
God does not always operate the way we think or expect.
 
OP, I lnow from your posting history that you’re really well versed in Catholicism.

I’m so sorry for whatever made your pain peak at this time. Psychological and spiritual pain has its peaks and valleys and sometimes we just scream on the inside from it all.

Let me throw this out to you, you may accept or reject this or even tell me to mind my own dang business…

When I was “screaming on the inside”, what took the edge off (note I didn’t say “make everything better”), was to work through the process of forgiveness, to give thanks in all things, and to remember that Jesus suffered everything we did, of His own choice.

Note: this does NOT fix everything, nor is it a permanent solution, just a practice that helped me (I still wanna scream sometimes, but not as badly and not for as long).

So anyway, I’m still remembering you in my prayers, you’re not alone🙂 and people here will talk to you
❤️:pray:t2:
 
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