Unanswered prayers - these can't simply be "God's plan"

[DarkLight]

In the example I am thinking of is prisoners of war. They are certainly being deprived of the use of their free will, but some choose to survive and not give in to despair and give up, but remain hopeful. They may withdraw into that part of themselves - in their thoughts, in which to cope. I’m also thinking of a man (can’t remember who, sorry), who was imprisoned and tortured, but he survived because he said whilst they could imprison the body, the mind was free to go where he willed.

I think my objections are rooted more in psychology and epistemology. I think the “free will” arguments get rather shaky when compared against the existence of traumatic disorders. I would wonder how to do them without essentially succumbing to the temptation to place moral blame on people who develop trauma symptoms. I am a bit wary of writings on things like despair for this reason. It’s not been that long in history where PTSD was seen as evidence of cowardice.

The other concern is epistemic. Especially in the case of a child, a person’s options are effectively limited by the information they have. Someone who has not at any point had a proper grounding in faith and morals and the ability to develop those appropriately will not have the ability to accept and hope and pray. How can they, unless they are somehow from the outside given the knowledge to do so? It’s common, for example, with children, for a prayer to look more like “God help me stop being so bad” because for all the child knows they are just hopelessly bad.

 

[CRV]

place moral blame on people who develop trauma symptoms.

It’s not been that long in history where PTSD was seen as evidence of cowardice.

I know. Keep a stiff upper lip used to be said in such situations, man up, take it on the chin etc etc

Whilst a person suffering from PTSD which resulted from what they underwent should not be blamed for this, they still have the choice whether to seek treatment/support in dealing with this or not. I would hope that treatment and support was available to all who suffer from PTSD.

I guess there is also a component in that some individuals can cope better or have better coping mechanisms in dealing with various situations.

Especially in the case of a child, a person’s options are effectively limited by the information they have.

My childhood was afflicted with DV. I’m not going to elaborate except to say what I witnessed especially under the age of 8 no child should have witnessed.

It does happen that children as well as adults who suffer abuse blame themselves, which as far as I know is a tactic of the abuser in that they convince the other what happens to them is their fault or they deserve such and such and no better. And yes, a child in these circumstances do naturally blame themselves see themselves to be at fault. But that is how a child relates to the world, the environment they are in. I would hope once that child matures, they themselves or with the help of others come to see and realize and know for the truth they are not bad and not at fault for what happened.

 

[DarkLight]

I would hope that treatment and support was available to all who suffer from PTSD.

That was admittedly what I referenced in my original post. I went through a lot where treatment was very much not available, because it wasn’t bad enough to be an emergency. Honestly half the problem was transportation - I was in a situation where there was no public transit and I didn’t own a car and couldn’t afford a taxi on a regular basis. So unless someone else was giving me a ride I simply couldn’t go. After a few missed appointment fees because of my transportation flaking out on me, I couldn’t afford to keep it up.

It seems silly that something as simple as that can keep someone from accessing treatment, but that sort of thing really isn’t uncommon. I was in college and if I’d dropped out I’d have essentially faced the choice of living with an abusive family or being homeless. Because there was no documentation of abuse at home though, I’d have been classified by the safety nets as someone who was just refusing help.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Honestly, the “blame the victim” game seems renewed in our world. It breaks my heart and makes me angry.

Abuse done by those who claim the name of Christian, against the least of these, is destructive in a way that you know far better than I know. Christ addressed these abusers with that descriptive phrase about millstones and the ocean.

We were given the book of Job to affirm that there are situations where a righteous person will be angry at God, one priest (cannot remember who) said "Job got mad, Job threw dishes at God, yet, Job remained righteous and never cursed God’.

 

[DarkLight]

We were given the book of Job to affirm that there are situations where a righteous person will be angry at God, one priest (cannot remember who) said "Job got mad, Job threw dishes at God, yet, Job remained righteous and never cursed God’.

I was going to go with about a third of the psalms. There’s a lot in there that amounts to “Hey God, what’s up with this? It’s not going the way you promised.”

I figure if nothing else I can take that as permission to ask these questions! If we weren’t supposed to ask it wouldn’t be in the Bible.

 

[CRV]

After a few missed appointment fees because of my transportation flaking out on me, I couldn’t afford to keep it up.

That sucks .

that sort of thing really isn’t uncommon

I agree. Sadly that is the case I would think for a lot of people, even if lack of transport compounding the affordability of treatment was the issue for you, then it could be distance to an appropriate facility who has the equipment for the particular testing, or the drugs are unaffordable, or not available in one’s country, or even not approved for that particular condition so any use is considered ‘off or extra’ label and there are physicians who are unwilling to prescribe the medication for various reasons (even if the drug can legally be prescribed).

I’d have essentially faced the choice of living with an abusive family or being homeless.

Awful situation for you to face as it is for many others in that type of situation. It’s not always simply a matter of leaving the man in the case of an abusive husband, especially in the past where there was not any social support etc.

Because there was no documentation of abuse at home though

There often isn’t especially in cases of mental or emotional or financial abuse, and even in physical abuse a man will punch/assualt a woman in places that aren’t usually exposed by ordinary clothing.

I’d have been classified by the safety nets as someone who was just refusing help.

Awful. I’m truly sorry you were in that predicament.

 

[DarkLight]

Awful situation for you to face as it is for many others in that type of situation. It’s not always simply a matter of leaving the man in the case of an abusive husband, especially in the past where there was not any social support etc.

There’s very little indeed for children needing to get away from abusive families, especially if there is no documentation created prior to the 18th birthday. The attitude is still very much “you’re 18, you can just get a job and move out,” no matter what the obstacles. Even though many of the issues are the same as telling a woman to simply leave her abusive partner, it’s much more likely for a young adult to simply be dismissed as entitled or ungrateful. I suspect that in my case, that I was dealing with an abusive mother and a passive, abused father did not help. Women are often given a lot more leeway.

But of course you can’t get financial aid for college on your own until 24, and it’s not uncommon for young adults to be considered ineligible for other help if they have family willing to house and feed them. Plus much aid is a catch-22; if you apply while living with family you have to count their income on your application. Which means you have to leave the house and then you can apply for assistance with housing and feeding yourself. And it takes a while to process. Plus I was pre-Obamacare, so leaving likely meant no insurance because I wasn’t legally disabled.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

You are still young. From what I follow, up to now, I believe your case is not so bad, in the sense that you are not disabled, and your need is not seen by the system as emergency although from your perspective it always is.

I am not sure about your relation to your parents: In the case they really abuse you, I suggest you talk to somebody or leave the house or just make police report.

However, many times, young people sees their parents as abusive simply because of discipline and/ or drug addiction, in which the young being immature and confused interpret their situation in this way. I do not know which one is your case. You are saying that your situation is very bad from everywhere you see it.

Just take a moment and read my post (post 21 above), and think it this way: that God is trying to build your immune system against the world. Yes, there is suffering involved. Does your parents inline in this plan: that they are trying to build you to become a tough, discipline young person?

 

[BarbTh]

We are finite and can only reflect most often on the immediate, while God is infinite and sees the big picture.
If you read the Book of Job, you will come to a better understanding I think.

Also, the Catholic Catechism will give you an understanding:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm (Scroll down to V GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN - DIVINE PROVIDENCE )

 

[DarkLight]

You are mistaking recounting memories for a report of current events. I am talking about what did happen when I was younger.

Be very careful with what you say. That was much of the reason I was denied help as a child. I did not have the words to explain properly, so adults simply assumed I was being disciplined appropriately and assured me that I would appreciate it when I grew up. It is very easy for an adult to get away with abuse by claiming the child is bad and they are trying to teach them better. Abuse is more than rape or beating a child black and blue, and much can go unremarked.

As far as medical care, “emergency” means you are likely to die or lose a limb or organ within the next couple of days if not treated. And “able to work” means little more than that you could probably sit at the entrance to Walmart and greet people. So there is a lot of room for severe and painful health problems, ones that would be considered urgent and disabling from the standard of normal discussion, that aren’t considered such for the purposes of assistance.

 

[John10]

I completely understand where you are coming from. I have too prayed to end certain evil things happening to me, however nothing seemed to changed.

However, I am certain this is not because “God has abandon me” or does not care about me.

I just need to remember what God allowed Christ to go through. A horrible and terrible crucifixion, despite nobody living a more holy and perfect life on earth.

The same can be said of the Blessed Mother, Mary. We know from our Catholic Doctrine she was sinless throughout her earthly life, however she suffered tremendously by seeing all of Christ crucifixion.

We know God allowed such evil to happen so that we may be redeemed, which is the greatest good which can happen to us. Infinite joy and happiness is not something we could ever deserve or hope to attain no matter how holy we became.

I guess the same can be said of our own sufferings or evil which we must endure, and that despite asking God for relieve nothing seems to change.

We all must carry our cross, however with God’s help our cross can become a vehicle to not only save ourselves, but also help to redeem others. By uniting our small sufferings with Christ’s crucifixion we help God rescue more souls.

Naturally we must constantly seek God’s assistance through prayer, the sacraments, doing good works, having patience, being forgiving, etc. On our own we can do nothing as the Lord said.

Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me”. Luke 9:23

 

[TheLittleLady]

Have you read Tara Westbrook’s “Educated”? I hope the success of this memoir will shed light into some darkness

 

[francisca.chapter3]

You are mistaking recounting memories for a report of current events. I am talking about what did happen when I was younger.

My apology for the misunderstanding. English isn’t my first language. Sometimes it happens I misread a post when I thought I have understood it.

Be very careful with what you say. That was much of the reason I was denied help as a child. I did not have the words to explain properly, so adults simply assumed I was being disciplined appropriately and assured me that I would appreciate it when I grew up. It is very easy for an adult to get away with abuse by claiming the child is bad and they are trying to teach them better. Abuse is more than rape or beating a child black and blue, and much can go unremarked.

As far as medical care, “emergency” means you are likely to die or lose a limb or organ within the next couple of days if not treated. And “able to work” means little more than that you could probably sit at the entrance to Walmart and greet people. So there is a lot of room for severe and painful health problems, ones that would be considered urgent and disabling from the standard of normal discussion, that aren’t considered such for the purposes of assistance.

I do not have much answer, except the bible passage The Story of Joseph where Joseph was being sold as a slave by his brothers.

I suppose Joseph must have gone through quite a bit. Freedom must have been completely takenaway from him and most probably a lot of treatments we consider as abusive was done to a slave everyday.

That was admittedly what I referenced in my original post. I went through a lot where treatment was very much not available, because it wasn’t bad enough to be an emergency. Honestly half the problem was transportation - I was in a situation where there was no public transit and I didn’t own a car and couldn’t afford a taxi on a regular basis. So unless someone else was giving me a ride I simply couldn’t go. After a few missed appointment fees because of my transportation flaking out on me, I couldn’t afford to keep it up.

Abuse victims becomes completely helpless in many aspects of life. Just as Joseph, who has not much freedom. However Joseph still chose to believe and so he obeyed his master as well as God. When the time came, Joseph received several opportunities that slowly lead him to become Pharaoh most trusted official. All of those times there were divine interventions. At each time, Joseph used his freewill to believe & respond to that divine interventions.

 

[Greenfields]

I see many great replies that are helpful to myself and explaining to my family
@DarkLight if I might suggest speaking with a priest in person ,or with our priest here ?

 

[DarkLight]

I have. I’ve felt that priests generally don’t want to talk about it. I think there’s a fear of talking about anything that might end up being mental health related. Like I get the sense that it’s viewed as you go to therapy and that fixes everything and then you don’t have questions or think about it anymore.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

And it’s true that the spiritual and psychological are very connected to each other.
Prolly the priests are scared of telling you the wrong thing and making it worse.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Okay—here’s another thought (again free to accept or reject ) maybe an online or RL support group for codependent families?
They seem to fill in the gap for the people who’s situation doesn’t precisely fit other categories.

 

[DarkLight]

I’d like to tell the story of when I walked away from faith, in college. Most people expect a story of someone who wanted to go out and commit sins. This wasn’t that story.

I was coming off of an abusive relationship with a boyfriend, and one that triggered memories farther back that I didn’t really understand. I didn’t know anything about the idea of consent, really - just a head full of women’s responsibility not to tempt men. As far as I knew I was guilty before God for not being able to stop what had happened.

I prayed, I studied my bible, I sought advice of those I considered wiser in the faith. All backed what I believed. I was living in a whirlwind of what I now recognize as a rapidly developing trauma disorder. Memories that meant I couldn’t sleep through the night, couldn’t focus. I was sick and having trouble eating and was losing weight (I had been slim to start with). I knew I needed mental health help as well, but nothing was available to me.

I remember praying and praying and praying for something. A chance to sleep. Some way to understand. Anything really. We had a prayer chapel and I remember spending whole nights there - I couldn’t sleep anyway much - searching and praying for an answer. And then one morning something just snapped and then I couldn’t do it anymore. I walked out for once free from all the pile of guilt that my faith was holding me to.

I’m sure plenty of you could point out the theological errors. I find that beside the point. I was young. I knew what I’d been taught and I did not have the resources or understanding to really challenge it. I can say that I had faith and that I turned to God when I was in distress. And I can say that what I gained from it was more and more guilt and pain. I was in error, yes, but could God not have given me some way out of that error? I do not think I can be blamed at that time for it. There was no hope or comfort or peace from prayer, just false guilt that seemed to certify that I was correct in my wrong interpretation.

 

[jack63]

And then one morning something just snapped and then I couldn’t do it anymore.

So how were you prayers not answered? Perhaps they were. Sounds like you didn’t understand something about faith and Christianity, and whatever you believed was pretty destructive. So perhaps you just were able to let go, so you could rebuild your faith at another time.

Sorry about your pain by the way.

 

[CRV]

I’m really sorry you went through all that DarkLight.

But you did come through it. Would you consider yourself a stronger person for having survived?

Whilst we should always turn to God, he has provided others to share our burdens as they (and as we all are) are His eyes, ears, hands, feet. I am also sorry that there doesn’t seem to have been anyone else there for you at such an awful time, and not just those to whom you did seek advice from whom you considered wiser in your faith, but family and friends.

False guilt can stem from our own faulty understanding as you say.

Hopefully now you have the right understanding in regards to what happened to you, responsibility for our own and others actions and where the boundaries for these are - civilly and religiously.