Unanswered problem #1 (Scripture interpretation)

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The closest thing we’re ever going to get is the big green Catechism. Many, many bible verses are referenced in the index. You can find what amounts to the official interpretation of many verses in the Catechism.

I’m not sure why we’d need more than that. 🤷
 
=david_friol;7668000]Thomas Aquinas is a great saint and his works are very good I’m sure but he is not the Catholic Church. So i don’t know where you get the idea that if a person who is Catholic writes something that that make it official Church teaching even if it is in line with the Catholic view.
My dear friend,

A Pontification of a Church Teaching on Faith or on Morals HAS GOD"S Promise of truth; ireguarless of who expresses it; so long as it is done accurately. [Jn.14:16-17; Jn. 17:15-19; and Matt. 16:19]

God Bless,
Pat
 
Spock,

There have been and continue to be supernatural phenomenons all throughout history and worldwide. They did not stop happening when Saint John the Apostle placed the period on the book of Revelations/Apocalypse. As you are well aware, many miracles/divine-supernatural phenomenons continue to occur, take for instance, Lourdes, the incorrupt body of Saint Bernadette, Fatima, Guadalupe, Shroud of Turin, etc, etc, etc. You seem to be focusing on the Bible as though the phenomenons recorded in it are extra ordinary claims made only in the Bible and as such have an added weight for proofs. This is not the case, miracles are happening in this world as I type.

Peace,

Abba
 
You beat me to the punch, Petey. Validity suddenly matters to Spock when it comes to religion. That’s special pleading and we all know it.
That’s about the size of it. Validity only matters so long as it isn’t applied to any of the claims he (most atheists) makes.
He’s conflating composition, which is fallacious, with induction,
I agree
which is valid.
Inductive arguments cannot be valid by definition. They can only be probable to whatever degree one supposes they have enough observations to support.
That in itself is another fallacy, ignoratio elechi.
sadly enough, I doubt it matters to him.
Spock like most smart people probably thinks that just because some effects have causes, it doesn’t necessarily follow that the universe as a whole has a cause. But that’s not what Aquinas’ argument is saying.
I am not sure which specific argument he is talking about. He won’t say. Its a lot easier to make blanket generalizations without support, than it is to back up specific claims.😊
 
Well, actually the Shroud of Turin dates back to biblical times. I typed too fast. Just call me speedy. 🙂
 
Perhaps. But the point is different. The catecism and the dogmas are just empty assertions. What “proof” are they referring to, I have no idea. When I first encountered it, I was very upbeat and expectant. Wow, the Church actually tells us how does one ascertain God’s existence without resorting to faith! And then I saw the empty space. No meat at all.

That is what started me to think about the need for an annotated bible. What the article says may be some of the reasons, but it cannot be the whole reason. After all we “know” that some places really existed “back then”, and some events really occurred. At least they have been substanitated by external sources to our satisfaction. But these places and events are of minor consequence. There are all those “supernatural”, miraculaous, magical things, too. There are two possibilities here:
  1. all the alleged “supernatural” events in the Bible are just legends, or
  2. there are some “supernatural” events which are historically valid.
Now the second possibility needs a tad more substantiation then “the church said so…”, at least when you talk to unbelievers. That is why at least some partial list of historically valid verses are needed. What the article insinuated is that there is nothing in the Bible, which could be declared “already researched to the extent that it can be said to be valid”.

Of course, my personal opinion is different. The Church does not dare to go out on a limb. The members do not wish to take the risk. 🙂 But that is my personal opinion only, which can safely be disregarded.
Okay. Let me back up a bit and ask you a bigger question.

Is the Bible the inerrant word of God?
 
There are several Catholic Bible editions and commentaries. :confused: Where did the OP get the notion that there weren’t? 🤷
 
Okay. Let me back up a bit and ask you a bigger question.

Is the Bible the inerrant word of God?
I can only give my opinion, which is: I certainly do not think so. How could I? I don’t believe in God. I don’r see the Bible any different from all those books and legends which have been promoted ts the explanation to “how the world came to be”.

Just in case you might want to ask me, how did the wolrd “come into existence” in my opinion, my answer is that I don’t even think that this question is legitimate. It is composed of legitimate words, using proper grammar, but the question is as meaningless as asking “what is to the north from the North Pole?” or “what is the smell of the color: bitter?”. If you did not want to ask me this quetion, please forgive my rant. 🙂
 
There have been and continue to be supernatural phenomenons all throughout history and worldwide. They did not stop happening when Saint John the Apostle placed the period on the book of Revelations/Apocalypse. As you are well aware, many miracles/divine-supernatural phenomenons continue to occur, take for instance, Lourdes, the incorrupt body of Saint Bernadette, Fatima, Guadalupe, Shroud of Turin, etc, etc, etc. You seem to be focusing on the Bible as though the phenomenons recorded in it are extra ordinary claims made only in the Bible and as such have an added weight for proofs. This is not the case, miracles are happening in this world as I type.
None of those have been substantiated. 🙂 And at least one, the first one you mentioned: “Lourdes” is a “recurring” phenomenon, subject to statistical analysis. No analysis shows anything “miraculous”.
 
Just in case you might want to ask me, how did the wolrd “come into existence” in my opinion, my answer is that I don’t even think that this question is legitimate. It is composed of legitimate words, using proper grammar, but the question is as meaningless as asking “what is to the north from the North Pole?” or “what is the smell of the color: bitter?”. If you did not want to ask me this quetion, please forgive my rant. 🙂
How convenient this is to your position. Funny, but I am pretty sure mainstream science thinks it is a meaningful question. Since you disagree with them.

Please post the “logically valid” (those are your words after all, right?) argument supporting your claim.
 
Did you catch his remark about the north pole? Ironic.
That one went right over my head. Whoosh!

Though the structure of the paragraph leads me to think that he expects us to accept that as a premise for the claim to the meaningless character of cosmological questions. Someone should call Stephen Hawking immediately!
 
Sorry. Ironic because he denies a First Cause yet thinks “north of the north pole” is nonsense.
Oh…

These things are why I think that atheism is less a legitimate intellectual position, and more an attempt to excuse away some aspect of ones personal behavior.🤷
 
I can only give my opinion, which is: I certainly do not think so. How could I? I don’t believe in God. I don’r see the Bible any different from all those books and legends which have been promoted ts the explanation to “how the world came to be”.
Fair enough…this is what I expected you to say, but I wanted to be sure. So, given that you don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, let me present the argument for the opposite position, then we’ll see where we stand, okay? And by the way, the following argument begins with your position and ends with mine! 😉

Proving Inspiration
catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work. (Let me know if you need help with this concept.)

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen, his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his resurrection, we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name. This means that the Catholic Church must be infallible.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

A Spiral Argument

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.

The advantages of the Catholic approach are two: First, the inspiration is really proved, not just “felt.” Second, the main fact behind the proof—the reality of an infallible, teaching Church—leads one naturally to an answer to the problem that troubled the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:30-31): How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.
 
Fair enough…this is what I expected you to say, but I wanted to be sure. So, given that you don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, let me present the argument for the opposite position, then we’ll see where we stand, okay? And by the way, the following argument begins with your position and ends with mine! 😉
My friend, I will need some time to reflect on your post in detail. What you say here is simply a variant of the “liar, lunatic or lord” type of argument, though you left out the “lunatic” part. The basic problem is that your method did not present an exhaustive set of possibilities, namely you left out the fourth possibility: “liar, lunatic, lord OR legend”. I would suggest to think along those lines, and possibly incorporating into your arguments. 🙂
 
=Spock;7673679]My friend, I will need some time to reflect on your post in detail. What you say here is simply a variant of the “liar, lunatic or lord” type of argument, though you left out the “lunatic” part. The basic problem is that your method did not present an exhaustive set of possibilities, namely you left out the fourth possibility: “liar, lunatic, lord OR legend”. I would suggest to think along those lines, and possibly incorporating into your arguments. 🙂
While your thinking; consider this thought also:

Look at the prophesies that were given in OT times and Proven and Completed [fulfilled] in the NT times, with historical evidence.

God Bless,
Pat
 
My friend, I will need some time to reflect on your post in detail. What you say here is simply a variant of the “liar, lunatic or lord” type of argument, though you left out the “lunatic” part.
That was mentioned in the third paragraph.
The basic problem is that your method did not present an exhaustive set of possibilities, namely you left out the fourth possibility: “liar, lunatic, lord OR legend”. I would suggest to think along those lines, and possibly incorporating into your arguments. 🙂
Ah…this was perhaps a presupposition on my part; however consider what I posted:

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work. (Let me know if you need help with this concept.)

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

I do not think it would be difficult to prove that the Bible is reliable as a purely historical document. Christian apologists have been greatly aided by the work of archeologists whose research has demonstrated that the Bible is remarkably accurate. Additionally, the accounts of non-Biblical historians such as Josephus provide further support. If so, then the idea that Jesus is a mere figure of LEGEND is right out.

So, when we begin with a reliable text of a book that contains reliable history, we can go on from there to conclude that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God because an infallible Church established by a man who was determined to be God incarnate says that the Book is inerrant.

As a non-believer, you will have to assail the argument at the point of historical accuracy; otherwise, the game is up.
 
I do not think it would be difficult to prove that the Bible is reliable as a purely historical document. Christian apologists have been greatly aided by the work of archeologists whose research has demonstrated that the Bible is remarkably accurate. Additionally, the accounts of non-Biblical historians such as Josephus provide further support. If so, then the idea that Jesus is a mere figure of LEGEND is right out.
I did not insinuate that Jesus was a “mere” legend. He might have lived as a person or might have been distilled from several people. But even if there was only one person with that name, the stories which describe his alleged god-like properties are unsubstantiated. Again, just because there are some details in the Bible which are historically accurate it does not follow that the rest is also historically accurate. Surely you see this?

Also you know (I hope) that the text in Josephus is widely regarded as a later addendum. The Romans were meticulous record keepers, and they never mention those incredible (literally incredible) miracles.
So, when we begin with a reliable text of a book that contains reliable history, we can go on from there to conclude that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God because an infallible Church established by a man who was determined to be God incarnate says that the Book is inerrant.

As a non-believer, you will have to assail the argument at the point of historical accuracy; otherwise, the game is up.
No, I certainly do not think that the Bible describes those miraculous events accurately. Of course the game is up. I do not have the expertise to prove that the Bible is historically incorrect. And it is not my job. If you wish to substantiate that the miraculous events described in the Bible can be taken historically, you need far more external corroboration than a dubious text from Josephus.

A long time ago I participated in a discussion where the other party claimed that he can prove mathematically (!) that the Bible is of divine origin, and he wanted to refer to the alleged predictions and their fulfillments. So I asked him a few questions: 1) which prophecies did he wish to include, 2) how he wished to substantiate that those prophecies were uttered as the Bible quotes them, 3) how did he wish to substabtiate that the descriptions of the alleged fulfillment of the prophecies are accurate. He refused to accept these prerequisites. As a matter of fact he demanded the opposite: namely that I accept the existence of all the allegedly fulfilled prophecies - without even telling me what they were. And he was not even joking. 🙂

Now, going back to your claims: the gospels were written at least 40 years after the alleged events transpired. None of the authors are known. Texual analysis showed that each of the canonic gospels is the work of several people. It was the Catholic Church that selected which books shall be included in the Bible, and which ones were left out as apocripha. The selection process was conducted by taking votes. There is no external corroboration of the events described the Bible. No archeological evidence can substanitate events, only places.
 
While your thinking; consider this thought also:

Look at the prophesies that were given in OT times and Proven and Completed [fulfilled] in the NT times, with historical evidence.

God Bless,
Pat
See the post directly above.
 
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