Unauthorized editing of the Profession of Faith

[Benedict]

I was in St Louis on 9/26/4 and attended mass at the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis. In the worshop aid/music booklet that was provided some bright soul rewrote the line in the Nicene Creed from–

“For us men and our salvation–”

to

“For us and our salvation–”

Has anyone else noticed this in other parishes? I am spoiled because I attend mass at a Benedictine monastery or in my parish chuch where we have two holy, committed priests and at neither place would anyone ever think of diddling with the Sacred Liturgy.

I have written Archbishop Burke a letter of complaint. He’s supposed to be a good, orthodox-aligned bishop. I hope it was just a typo, but I don’t think so.

 

[Ray_Marshall]

Benedict:

I was in St Louis on 9/26/4 and attended mass at the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis. In the worshop aid/music booklet that was provided some bright soul rewrote the line in the Nicene Creed from–

“For us men and our salvation–”

to

“For us and our salvation–”

Has anyone else noticed this in other parishes?

You have hit upon the “hit single” of the 21st century Roman Catholic Church.

It’s OK to refer to Jesus Christ as “Him” or “He”, but the Father, nope. I think that the Holy Spirit/Ghost (I AM a geezer) still rates only an “It.”

In prayer or in song, I have noticed recently that it is not “His Church”, it is “God’s Church”, or some such variation.

I think it is one of those grass roots movements which rise up like urban legends.

But on a more serious note, it is also a problem of translation. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. All were translated into Latin, and then into the various vernacular languages.

Well, each national heirarchy submits their translation to Rome for approval.

Thus, in the United States, the approved translation of the Nicene Creed is, as noted in the quote, “For us men and our salvation.”

But . . .

In French, the same translation is: “pour nous” [for us]. If it is OK in France, why wouldn’t it be OK in the US?

I don’t know.

Much of it is a language problem. In German, for example, with which I am more familiar, there is the word “Mann” which mean “man”, and the word “Mensch” which means “mankind.”

In Latin, which I studied 45 years ago and not since, there is a word “Vir” which means “man” and the word “hommes” which means "mankind.

We don’t really make the same distinction in English.

So let’s blame it on mankind/personkind and the linguists, and “pray for it.”

Pray for it.

 

[moira]

There is one young lady in our parish who always says God’s when everybody else is saying His. Which is fine for her but annoying when you are sitting near her. It throws me off and starts my mind to wandering when I don’t want it to.

As in ‘for His good and the good of all His Church.’ She says
‘for God’s good and the good of all God’s Church.’

 

[tee_eff_em]

Ray Marshall:

Well, each national heirarchy submits their translation to Rome for approval.

Thus, in the United States, the approved translation of the Nicene Creed is, as noted in the quote, “For us men and our salvation.”

But . . .

In French, the same translation is: “pour nous” [for us]. If it is OK in France, why wouldn’t it be OK in the US?

I don’t know.

The editio typica (Latin) text is (with emphasis added)

*Qui propter nos **homines *** et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis.

makes use of the word homo,hominis (homines) which does mean man/human/member-of-the-human-race

So the French are wrong (and for all I know, there are francophones who are as upset by the translation of their liturgy as are many anglophones upset by the ICEL’s product)

 

[Detroit_Sue]

moira:

There is one young lady in our parish who always says God’s when everybody else is saying His. Which is fine for her but annoying when you are sitting near her. It throws me off and starts my mind to wandering when I don’t want it to.

As in ‘for His good and the good of all His Church.’ She says
‘for God’s good and the good of all God’s Church.’

What part of “Our Father” does she not understand?

If she does it week after week, I might approach her and ask her why she changes the words.

 

[moira]

Detroit Sue:

What part of “Our Father” does she not understand?

If she does it week after week, I might approach her and ask her why she changes the words.

I think she does this because she was taught to by the lifeteen program. She has also tried to get my teens to go up on the altar during the consecration. I have told them NO, don’t do that. Since then word has come down that no one is to be on the altar during the consecration except the priest. Thankfully, this has changed, (people around the altar) but as we all know old habits die hard. She has probably said it this way for so long that it’s hard to switch.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

 

[seeker63]

Ah hah! I thought I was going to have to start a thread on this myself.

I like my parish for a lot of reasons. I just wish it was way, way more traditional. But the Novus Ordo seems prettu Protestant to me. A few weeks ago I was to go with my RCIA class to a specific Mass for a special welcoming ceremony. Unfortunately, they’d moved the Life Teen Mass to that time, and the music and all actually angered me. It seemed so irreverent. (And yes, I’ve read all the posts of people here who love that kind of music.) Had I not had to attend the ceremony I might’ve walked out. I was strongly tempted to join the Orthodox Church instead.

So I’ve been trying to figure out which Sunday Mass in my parish is the most traditional one. (I’d go to a Latin Mass if I could.) This Sunday I went to one that had the “hippie Jesus” music that annoys me so much, but it also had a priest I rather like.

But during the Creed I noticed that this priest left out the word “men.” He has a very loud, clear voice that you can hear over the whole congregation, musical instruments, and all that, so when he doesn’t say something, that sticks out just as much. and that just broke my heart, since I like this priest.

On the other hand, I hear my church is a major training church, and the “up and comers” don’t stay here very long before they get fast-tracked somewhere else.

It’s stuff like this that makes me wonder why I bother.

It’s hard to feel reverent in a Church that increasingly feels like a cross between MTV’s “TRL” and some Political Correctness seminar. (We had a young woman in RCIA last week asking a teacher if the “whole Mary thing” had been concocted by the Church hierarchy to make weak, stupid, poor, and oppressed women over the centuries erroneously feel as if they actually had some power in the Church.)

Modern, P.C. nonsense and “contemporary worship” are major factors that turned me away from Protestantism. I asked a Catholic convert friend a few months ago which was “the most traditional Catholic Church in town.” He said, “Well, if you want the most conservative that’d probably be _____. But if you want the one that’s the most fun to go to it’s ______.” I said, “No. Not at all. I do not want something ‘fun.’ I want nothing resembling fun. I’m looking for some church that takes its Catholicism seriously.”

I’m even bugged by the inclusive language in the New American Bible! This is not as much because of the wording as it is the idea that temporary, trivial cultural fashions are calling the shots in eternal matters of the Church.