Unbaptized Babies and Salvation

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t let all this wild guessing worry me. I have two unbaptized babies that died before birth and I know God Loves them and they are NOT in Hell, Just because God has not told us exactly His Divine Mystery on this doesn’t mean we have to think the worst of HIM. NO ONE goes to Hell for what they “might” have done. TRUST GOD !! If parents knowingly fail to Baptize their children and they die without Baptism, then the fault lies on the parents. God does NOT expect us to do the impossible before a baby is born. God Bless, Memaw

Here’s where the logical and emotional collide. I too have lost unborn children. No part of me reconciled them to heaven theologically. Hell seems harsh to my human mind. So limbo makes the most sense to me. But if no limbo, I don’t understand how salvation could be achieved. But I do see how damnation could be the case. The fall of man is more tragic than we think, it’s more than a story. It’s a tradgedy.
This is indeed a mystery. And it will never be solved. Scripture is closed. God knows well the suffering of those who have lost babies. And yet, He chooses to teach in his Church the importance of infant baptism. Providing us with the ordained and non ordained permission and duty to baptize ASAP.

I’ve seen parents who’ve lost a child minutes after baptism. There is something different.

 

[Memaw]

Here’s where the logical and emotional collide. I too have lost unborn children. No part of me reconciled them to heaven theologically. Hell seems harsh to my human mind. So limbo makes the most sense to me. But if no limbo, I don’t understand how salvation could be achieved. But I do see how damnation could be the case. The fall of man is more tragic than we think, it’s more than a story. It’s a tradgedy.
This is indeed a mystery. And it will never be solved. Scripture is closed. God knows well the suffering of those who have lost babies. And yet, He chooses to teach in his Church the importance of infant baptism. Providing us with the ordained and non ordained permission and duty to baptize ASAP.

I’ve seen parents who’ve lost a child minutes after baptism. There is something different.

Limbo simply means “neither here nor there” (not in Heaven nor in Hell) It is also referred to as the “edge or hem” of Heaven. Since we do not know exactly what God knows, we trust in Him. We cannot understand the Mysteries of God and it is not necessary that we as simple humans do so. I don’t even try to figure it out. I trust God. Like Fr. said, He loves my babies more than I. We DO KNOW for sure that they do NOT go to Hell. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No we do not.

 

[porthos11]

Limbo simply means “neither here nor there” (not in Heaven nor in Hell) It is also referred to as the “edge or hem” of Heaven. Since we do not know exactly what God knows, we trust in Him. We cannot understand the Mysteries of God and it is not necessary that we as simple humans do so. I don’t even try to figure it out. I trust God. Like Fr. said, He loves my babies more than I. We DO KNOW for sure that they do NOT go to Hell. God Bless, Memaw

Actually, Limbo is thought to be the rim or edge of hell, not heaven. The theory of limbo (to which I do not subscribe) is that souls there who are not guilty of personal sin are still forever deprived of the beatific vision and so cannot enter heaven. So they end up in the least painful section of hell, where the only “pain” is that of the loss of the Beatific Vision but they experience perfect natural happiness, as if they lived on earth with absolutely no form of earthly sorrow or pain.

As I said, however, I’m not inclined to go the Limbo route, even if solely for the fact that the Church has never taught it. Trusting in God’s mercy is the way to go, even if we do not know. There’s probably some mysterious way not revealed to us that God can infuse sanctifying grace into these souls. We know only what we know, but God knows all and can do all. We cannot presume, but we can hope.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Actually, Limbo is thought to be the rim or edge of hell, not heaven. The theory of limbo (to which I do not subscribe) is that souls there who are not guilty of personal sin are still forever deprived of the beatific vision and so cannot enter heaven. So they end up in the least painful section of hell, where the only “pain” is that of the loss of the Beatific Vision but they experience perfect natural happiness, as if they lived on earth with absolutely no form of earthly sorrow or pain.

As I said, however, I’m not inclined to go the Limbo route, even if solely for the fact that the Church has never taught it. Trusting in God’s mercy is the way to go, even if we do not know. There’s probably some mysterious way not revealed to us that God can infuse sanctifying grace into these souls. We know only what we know, but God knows all and can do all. We cannot presume, but we can hope.

Do you believe in the " limbo of patriarchs" as in “he descended to “hell” ( the dead)”?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

For what it’s worth, St. Thomas Aquinas taught the following with regards to those in the womb. I don’t see why the logic couldn’t be extended to those impeded from baptism in other ways:
Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article11

I believe this.

We ask Our Lady, “Pray for us sinners, now at the the hour of our death.” So, is it possible that our Lady will not pray, and Her Son would not listen, because the baby died before the parents could act?

St. Faustina said Jesus calls on all of us at the moment of our death, but He wouldn’t call out to a baby He created?

Finally we pray what we believe. I prayed the divine mercy for my little baby as I was miscarrying. No “logic” will have me believe that He didn’t listen to my prayers.

 

[Memaw]

Actually, Limbo is thought to be the rim or edge of hell, not heaven. The theory of limbo (to which I do not subscribe) is that souls there who are not guilty of personal sin are still forever deprived of the beatific vision and so cannot enter heaven. So they end up in the least painful section of hell, where the only “pain” is that of the loss of the Beatific Vision but they experience perfect natural happiness, as if they lived on earth with absolutely no form of earthly sorrow or pain.

As I said, however, I’m not inclined to go the Limbo route, even if solely for the fact that the Church has never taught it. Trusting in God’s mercy is the way to go, even if we do not know. There’s probably some mysterious way not revealed to us that God can infuse sanctifying grace into these souls. We know only what we know, but God knows all and can do all. We cannot presume, but we can hope.

It was not thought to be Hell or anywhere near it. They are in a state of happiness even if not able to go fully into Heaven. Why would an innocent baby suffer any part of Hell??? Like I said most of this is wild speculation. But the Catholic Church does teach that those innocent babies DO NOT go to Hell. God Bless, Memaw

 

[porthos11]

Do you believe in the " limbo of patriarchs" as in “he descended to “hell” ( the dead)”?

Yes, but I don’t prefer that term, and is not material to this discussion. The so-called “Limbo of the Patriarchs” is sheol.

 

[porthos11]

It was not thought to be Hell or anywhere near it. They are in a state of happiness even if not able to go fully into Heaven. Why would an innocent baby suffer any part of Hell??? Like I said most of this is wild speculation. But the Catholic Church does teach that those innocent babies DO NOT go to Hell. God Bless, Memaw

Yes, but just stating what the theory held and correcting misconceptions of the theory. Sometimes, people seek consolation in the idea that limbo was part of heaven. It isn’t. Limbo, as theorized, was part of hell (it was the edge, or limbus of hell, not heaven). One reason I don’t subscribe to it.

I’m satisfied with “I don’t know”.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It was not thought to be Hell or anywhere near it. They are in a state of happiness even if not able to go fully into Heaven. Why would an innocent baby suffer any part of Hell??? Like I said most of this is wild speculation. But the Catholic Church does teach that those innocent babies DO NOT go to Hell. God Bless, Memaw

Do you believe that by his creation Man is due heaven?
By the way. Though a highly charged topic, I’m enjoying the discussion. I hope you are as well.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, but I don’t prefer that term, and is not material to this discussion. The so-called “Limbo of the Patriarchs” is sheol.

It’s quite pertinent.
So let’s use your term for your comfort. From the Fall, to the crucifixion, for thousands of years you believe God denied the beatific vision, heaven, to those who just had the misfortune to be born and die before 33 AD. But after that specific moment, after the atonement, they were allowed heaven. Saint Adam, Saint Moses, Saint Elijah and so on right?

 

[porthos11]

It’s quite pertinent.
So let’s use your term for your comfort. From the Fall, to the crucifixion, for thousands of years you believe God denied the beatific vision, heaven, to those who just had the misfortune to be born and die before 33 AD. But after that specific moment, after the atonement, they were allowed heaven. Saint Adam, Saint Moses, Saint Elijah and so on right?

Sheol no longer exists, temporally speaking. We only speak of sheol because it’s the only way we can express this “waiting” in our temporal sphere, an expression we inherited from the Jews. But it is clear from holy writ that sheol was a temporary state, as is Purgatory “now”.

The so-called “limbo of the infants” was conceived as a final state, the least painful section of hell. This has no bearing in Scripture or Tradition, only as a hypothesis.

So yes, the discussion of sheol here is irrelevant.

 

[JoeFreedom]

I’m not addressing you or mocking your question, but rather, I am directing my comment to the other Catholics who are trying to “answer” your question. Your question is fair and fine.

…

Do not read insult where none is intended or offered.

My apologies to you. Please forgive me.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Do you believe that by his creation Man is due heaven?
By the way. Though a highly charged topic, I’m enjoying the discussion. I hope you are as well.

Yes, definitely an interesting subject. Was unprepared for the vastness of responses! One reason why I posed it is because I am truly interested in knowing more. It also has a personal aspect for me (why, I won’t say however).

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Sheol no longer exists, temporally speaking. We only speak of sheol because it’s the only way we can express this “waiting” in our temporal sphere, an expression we inherited from the Jews. But it is clear from holy writ that sheol was a temporary state, as is Purgatory “now”.

The so-called “limbo of the infants” was conceived as a final state, the least painful section of hell. This has no bearing in Scripture or Tradition, only as a hypothesis.

So yes, the discussion of sheol here is irrelevant.

The relevancy is to explore the argument that “a just God” would not deny heaven to one based on the circumstance or location in time of birth.
If that is true, why the wait for a savior? Why the wait for the second coming?

 

[JoeFreedom]

It’s quite pertinent.
So let’s use your term for your comfort. From the Fall, to the crucifixion, for thousands of years you believe God denied the beatific vision, heaven, to those who just had the misfortune to be born and die before 33 AD. But after that specific moment, after the atonement, they were allowed heaven. Saint Adam, Saint Moses, Saint Elijah and so on right?

It’s my personal opinion (along with my trust in God and His mercy) that because He assumed Saint Elijah into heaven (meaning He can do as He pleases…), and because there were so many people who died prior to baptism that the God I know (with infinite mercy) wouldn’t be like, “Oh well, sorry, you can’t go to Heaven, go straight to Hell because salvation history wasn’t completed yet”, right!? God loves all His children and wants all of us to spend eternity with Him. Those who died in Sheol, etc.

Also, as I was fighting scruples, specifically in ensuring that I confessed properly or if I sinned and “didn’t know it”, I was told by one Father, “God isn’t going to send you to Hell on a technicality”.

Because of this, it would seem that because of what we know of God, it would have been revealed and/or the Church would have been able to deem this through what has been revealed. And I was asking because I was trying to find out why. Gotten some good responses here.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Three of the seven sacraments may be administered before the age of reason.

Why do we baptize infants?

Do we extend this teaching to those under the age of reason. Do we guarantee thier salvation? Or do we merely “hope”?

 

[TK421]

I would like to thank everybody who has posted in this thread for such a rich, charitable, and productive conversation that has taken place so far. This is at times a touchy subject and everybody here has participated admirably. Some might believe that these sort of conversations are overly academic and not profitable for souls, but I disagree.

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Three of the seven sacraments may be administered before the age of reason.

And the ‘age of reason’ is not doctrinal. It is a practice, based on prudential judgment. There is no magical number given for when a person becomes accountable for their actions.

Why do we baptize infants?

Because Our Lord commanded us to be baptized, and because it is Tradition to baptize our children. Because it is the ordinary means of receiving sanctifying grace and initiates a person as a Christian, and if done within the Church, as a Catholic as well. And because it is morally obligatory for a Catholic to have their child baptized.

I don’t believe baptized infants automatically go to Heaven because this assumes that there is no consent that takes place before a soul departs from the body and enters the Beatific Vision: that free will is abrogated and ignored. Something which is so important to God that he allowed his Son to die on a cross. I do not believe this is correct, and - in my opinion - does not follow the internal logic & 2000-year-old teachings of Christianity and in particular of Catholicism.

The Church has never ‘canonized’ baptized infants. It teaches - officially - that at the moment of baptism, a person is put into a state of sanctifying grace, and that those who die in a state of sanctifying grace go to Heaven, and that those who do not die in state of sanctifying grace go to hell. That is what it teaches and has always taught. Many people infer that this means baptized infants must go to Heaven, but it is an inference and in my opinion a faulty one that does not conform to the logic of God’s salvific mission.

I believe infants going to hell (or more specifically to limbo) is faulty for the same reason. Limbo is also the speculated dwelling of the righteous pagans, because they were not baptized and presumably were unable to receive a baptism of desire, so instead of entering the Beatific Vision, they dwell in a part of hell that is not unpleasant, but where God’s supernatural graces don’t exist either. All of this is assuming that no divine intervention takes places between the person and God, and at the very least, private revelation would suggest otherwise.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It’s my personal opinion (along with my trust in God and His mercy) that because He assumed Saint Elijah into heaven (meaning He can do as He pleases…), and because there were so many people who died prior to baptism that the God I know (with infinite mercy) wouldn’t be like, “Oh well, sorry, you can’t go to Heaven, go straight to Hell because salvation history wasn’t completed yet”, right!? God loves all His children and wants all of us to spend eternity with Him. Those who died in Sheol, etc.

Also, as I was fighting scruples, specifically in ensuring that I confessed properly or if I sinned and “didn’t know it”, I was told by one Father, “God isn’t going to send you to Hell on a technicality”.

Because of this, it would seem that because of what we know of God, it would have been revealed and/or the Church would have been able to deem this through what has been revealed. And I was asking because I was trying to find out why. Gotten some good responses here.

Here is an interesting article on Elijah.
catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/elijah.html
He would not have shared the beatific vision.

 

[ericc]

Given that it is church teaching that a baptised baby will go straight to heaven, this argument is incorrect as baptised children choose nothing and have not ‘earned’ salvation per sae.

For babies as well as foetuses, baptized or otherwise, they can’t choose. What happened to them are the decisions of their parents. You could have babies kidnapped and sold, swapped at the hospital, miscarriages, pregnant women dying along with their unborn, and a hundred other ways that prevented salvation. Do you think a just and loving God will discard/disown them for a mere technicality which is not of their own doing?

My personal belief is that they go to heaven as I cannot imagine a God who would allow billions of people to go to hell for not being baptised, given that God is not bound by the sacraments. I don’t really know about limbo, since it isn’t church teaching I don’t really accept it personally. The big caveat here is that it’s my opinion, but personally I’m confident in it.

My personal belief is that a magnanimous God would just adopt them.

The relevant verses would be:

Matthew 19:14 “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them…” For those unbaptized , they were hindered.

Matthew 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.” For some reason, you have little ones in heaven before the institution of baptism. We do not know whether these include circumcised babies or babies that didn’t make it by the eighth day for circumcision or those that died in the mother’s womb due to sickness or war or accident.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Babies are pure in heart.

By adopting the unwanted, the discarded, the unfortunate, God’s justice /mercy/love come together. We are adopted as children of by reason of our freewill/choice. For those who are not able to exercise their freewill/choice, they rely on One who could determine it for them. Whether God house them in different mansions or special rooms in the mansion, is his prerogative.