Unbaptized Christians?

[AlwaysCurious]

My family is composed largely of Quakers, who see the sacraments as mere disposable symbols. As such, most of them have never been baptized. However, they also consider themselves staunch Christians, and in most other respects would identify with typical evangelical Protestant theology and practice. They believe in a conversion experience, a personal relationship with God, moral living, (their own interpretation of) the Bible, and so forth. Some are involved in formal ministry and missions work, and seem to be every bit as faithful and fruitful as many baptized Christians.

So my question: how does this fit into the Catholic, sacramental understanding of baptism as the beginning of Christian life? Does it fall under baptism by desire (if only they knew what baptism was, they’d go through with it)? Can a person be a Christian and yet purposefully unbaptized as a result of sheer ignorance?

And finally: does it fall to me, the lone Catholic of the bunch, to direct them toward a better understanding of the sacraments so that they will at least get baptized? Thanks for any advice!

 

[Publisher]

My family is composed largely of Quakers, who see the sacraments as mere disposable symbols. As such, most of them have never been baptized. However, they also consider themselves staunch Christians, and in most other respects would identify with typical evangelical Protestant theology and practice. They believe in a conversion experience, a personal relationship with God, moral living, (their own interpretation of) the Bible, and so forth. Some are involved in formal ministry and missions work, and seem to be every bit as faithful and fruitful as many baptized Christians.

So my question: how does this fit into the Catholic, sacramental understanding of baptism as the beginning of Christian life? Does it fall under baptism by desire (if only they knew what baptism was, they’d go through with it)? Can a person be a Christian and yet purposefully unbaptized as a result of sheer ignorance?

And finally: does it fall to me, the lone Catholic of the bunch, to direct them toward a better understanding of the sacraments so that they will at least get baptized? Thanks for any advice!

Friends don’t view them as “disposable symbols”…we don’t accept any “outward” ritual performed for us…or on our behalf as necessary for our salvation…we are baptized…Christ Himself is our Baptizer…in His Spirit…“I baptize you with water…BUT there is one among you who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

As a Friend I have a very sacramental view of my world…life is sacramental…the “sacred” and the “secular” are not separated…each act of mercy and love…each cup of water given in His name carries with it “sacramental meaning”…each meal is an opportunity to share in the Light.

Your Quaker relatives are Baptized…just not with water.

 

[mdrummer5]

Friends don’t view them as “disposable symbols”…we don’t accept any “outward” ritual performed for us…or on our behalf as necessary for our salvation…we are baptized…Christ Himself is our Baptizer…in His Spirit…“I baptize you with water…BUT there is one among you who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

As a Friend I have a very sacramental view of my world…life is sacramental…the “sacred” and the “secular” are not separated…each act of mercy and love…each cup of water given in His name carries with it “sacramental meaning”…each meal is an opportunity to share in the Light.

Your Quaker relatives are Baptized…just not with water.

But we are called to follow and live as Jesus did (as close as we are able) are we not? And he was baptized in water and God was pleased at this… so why would we not do the same?

 

[Mickey]

the “sacred” and the “secular” are not separated

Of course not. Each Mystery (Sacrament) carries a physical (earthly) and a spiritual (divine) aspect. Baptism for example: The water and the holy chrism oil are the physical— and the Holy Spirit is the spiritual. It is both.

**Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn 3:5). **

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Matt 28:19)

Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet 3:21).

 

[Publisher]

But we are called to follow and live as Jesus did (as close as we are able) are we not? And he was baptized in water and God was pleased at this… so why would we not do the same?

Jesus also performed other Jewish rituals and mikvah’s. Friends seek to follow Him in all things…He fulfilled righteousness already…He fulfilled the need for any ritual requirements.

 

[Publisher]

Of course not. Each Mystery (Sacrament) carries a physical (earthly) and a spiritual (divine) aspect. Baptism for example: The water and the holy chrism oil are the physical— and the Holy Spirit is the spiritual. It is both.

**Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn 3:5). **

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Matt 28:19)

Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet 3:21).

There is no doubt those first people called Christians continued to perform rituals…

If you believe you are required to perform these rituals to find favor with God…Friends have no problem with that…for us…We have experienced that spiritual baptism…experientially we have received this New Life in Christ without the outward perfromance of ritual requirements.

 

[mdrummer5]

There is no doubt those first people called Christians continued to perform rituals…

If you believe you are required to perform these rituals to find favor with God…Friends have no problem with that…for us…We have experienced that spiritual baptism…experientially we have received this New Life in Christ without the outward perfromance of ritual requirements.

Ok… to repeat Mickey’s point…

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn 3:5).

So… Jesus explicitly states that if a man is not baptized of water he cannot enter into heaven how exactly do you explain defying such a clear requirement?

 

[Publisher]

Ok… to repeat Mickey’s point…

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn 3:5).

So… Jesus explicitly states that if a man is not baptized of water he cannot enter into heaven how exactly do you explain defying such a clear requirement?

While I know you disagree…I’ll attempt anyway…Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus…Nicodemus wondered how a man could enter into his mother’s womb again to be “born again”…Jesus told him…we had to be born from above…unless a man has a “natural birth” and a “spiritual birth”…the two were contrasted…he wasn’t addressing baptism at all in this passage…of course…you see differently…and that’s ok with me…I am very content to await God’s judgement on the matter…I place myself in His Hands on the matter…“He does all things well.”

 

[Mickey]

We have experienced that spiritual baptism.

I have often seen Quakers use the term “rituals” in a way that depicts negative connotation. I should hope that is not the case with you. Having said that, Catholics and Orthodox experience the spiritual baptism as set forth by Christ and administered by the Church which He established–as I have just explained it to you. Christ was completely human (physical) and completely God (divine/spiritual), and so he has give to us those attributes in the Holy Mysteries of His Church.

 

[Mickey]

he wasn’t addressing baptism at all in this passage

Of course he was.

of course…you see differently

So do the early Christians and Fathers of the Church.

I am very content to await God’s judgement on the matter

Indeed.

 

[Publisher]

I have often seen Quakers use the term “rituals” in a way that depicts negative connotation. I should hope that is not the case with you. Having said that, Catholics and Orthodox experience the spiritual baptism as set forth by Christ and administered by the Church which He established–as I have just explained it to you. Christ was completely human (physical) and completely God (divine/spiritual), and so he has give to us those attributes in the Holy Mysteries of His Church.

That is an “Orthodox/Catholic” caricature of Friends…a “projection” not shared by Friends at all…Friends do not see rituals in a negative connotation…we simply have experienced the Reality that the rituals point to…you and I share New Life in Christ…it is He through the ministry and work of His Spirit which makes us one in Him…we share together as members of His Body…

 

[Mickey]

That is an “Orthodox/Catholic” caricature of Friends

I hope you are being honest. I have seen you denigrate the Catholic and Orthodox Church often on these threads (whether intentionally or unintentionally I do not know–God knows).

 

[Publisher]

I hope you are being honest. I have seen you denigrate the Catholic and Orthodox Church often on these threads (whether intentionally or unintentionally I do not know–God knows).

Friend, disagreeing with your beliefs IS NOT “denigrating”…I have done my best to share my beliefs and that of Friends in the most respectful and gentle manner I can…please…take no offense where none is intended. If you can share where I have “denigrated the Catholic and Orthodox Church” in my posts…I will apologize…I apologize now for any slight I may have intentionally stated…but would be very interested in seeing where I have done so.

Peace to you friend.

 

[mdrummer5]

While I know you disagree…I’ll attempt anyway…Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus…Nicodemus wondered how a man could enter into his mother’s womb again to be “born again”…Jesus told him…we had to be born from above…unless a man has a “natural birth” and a “spiritual birth”…the two were contrasted…he wasn’t addressing baptism at all in this passage…of course…you see differently…and that’s ok with me…I am very content to await God’s judgement on the matter…I place myself in His Hands on the matter…“He does all things well.”

You’re right… I do disagree… however I can appreciate the difference in interpretation.

 

[Mickey]

Friend, disagreeing with your beliefs IS NOT “denigrating”…I have done my best to share my beliefs and that of Friends in the most respectful and gentle manner I can…please…take no offense where none is intended. If you can share where I have “denigrated the Catholic and Orthodox Church” in my posts…I will apologize…I apologize now for any slight I may have intentionally stated…but would be very interested in seeing where I have done so.

I do not have the time, nor do I care to search through all your posts to find the places where you have hurled jabs. But I will take a statement from this very thread:

Publisher: If you believe you are required to perform these rituals to find favor with God…

You know very well they are Mysteries (Sacraments) of the Church–yet you use the term “ritual” which carries negative connotation–and you know it. The Holy Mysteries were established by Christ Himself as way for us to participate in God’s freely given grace. It is the Mysteries of the Church that manifest God’s saving energies in our lives. The Church Herself is a Mystery (Sacrament). I understand that you are driven to explain the ways of Quakers—but I have seen a momumental lack of respect in many of your posts.

 

[Mickey]

experientially we have received this New Life in Christ without the outward perfromance of ritual requirements.

St Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (*First Apology *61 [A.D. 151]).

 

[dzheremi]

That is an “Orthodox/Catholic” caricature of Friends…a “projection” not shared by Friends at all…Friends do not see rituals in a negative connotation…we simply have experienced the Reality that the rituals point to…

Right away, the bolded portion gives me pause. It seems incredibly strange to me to have this sort of division whereby there is ritual and, somewhere else, behind it or otherwise not in it, there is a different and yet related “reality” that can be experienced while completely removed from it. As you have explained it above, it is logical how the Friends would come up with the kind of worship that they do, but I also think this kind of dualistic thinking is how you end up with things like a “symbolic Eucharist”, as enjoyed by the non-Orthodox and non-Catholic churches in defiance of the strong Biblical and Patristic witness to the contrary.

One of the things I most cherish about Apostolic Christianity (and for which I must completely and unreservedly thank the Roman Catholic Church, as it was certainly not part of my experience prior to my time in the RCC, as a Presbyterian) is the very immediacy and reality of the Eucharistic gift of Christ’s holy blood and body. In orthodox Christian belief, as I’m sure you know, the bread and wine really and truly do become the blood and body of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. The reality of the transformation of the gifts is not just expressed within the ritual that occurs at a particular point in the liturgy, it is. This is the context in which this event happens (present tense!), as surely as it happened 2,000 years ago for the first time when His body and His blood was first given for the remission of our sins and for eternal life. And, Friend, there is nothing so real! It is a reality that, in the most real and literal way imaginable, no one can live without.

“…He took bread into His holy hands, and when He had given thanks, He blessed, and sanctified, and broke…”

 

[Mickey]

And, Friend, there is nothing so real! It is a reality that, in the most real and literal way imaginable, no one can live without.

 

[SteveGC]

There is no doubt those first people called Christians continued to perform rituals…

If you believe you are required to perform these rituals to find favor with God…Friends have no problem with that…for us…We have experienced that spiritual baptism…experientially we have received this New Life in Christ without the outward perfromance of ritual requirements.

the bolded parts of your comment is either condescending, or ignorant…or both. From your demeanor, I would guess it’s the latter. I’m sure you meant nothing by it, but your wording suggests that Catholics have no experience of spiritual baptism, but only ritualistic physical baptism. Your later comment to Mickey reveals you probably didn’t mean it that way, correct?

 

[Mickey]

the bolded parts of your comment is either condescending, or ignorant…or both. From your demeanor, I would guess it’s the latter. I’m sure you meant nothing by it, but your wording suggests that Catholics have no experience of spiritual baptism, but only ritualistic physical baptism.

That is how I felt about it.

Your later comment to Mickey reveals you probably didn’t mean it that way, correct?

Here is the dilemma—he denies the slight after it is brought to his attention----then continues to post in this manner.