Unbaptized cousin reads about the importance of infant baptism...

[Puzzlelover]

This has been a sticky situation for us.

My husband’s family is not Catholic and lives out of state. When we were all together recently, my nine-year-old niece was reading our Catholic Children’s Treasure Box books. I was not trying to convert her and had not left them in a prominent place, but she found them among some of of our homeschooling books. She read them and was disturbed by the stories of “Wupsy,” a guardian angel who has the honor of being assigned to the only baptized baby in a small African village.

As an unbaptized Protestant, my niece was bothered about the emphasis on infant baptism. She proceeded to ask my 14-year-old daughter about it. Having been homeschooled all her life, my daughter has practically memorized the Baltimore Catechism and was able to answer some questions. When my sister-in-law found out about the whole situation, she and my mother-in-law proceeded to question my daughter in great detail about the Church’s teaching on infant baptism. She came to me afterward and was upset because she felt that she had not given an adequate explanation of the doctrine.

What would be the best way to handle these situations where our Faith conflicts with theirs? I don’t want to cause problems, but these issues seem to come up every time my daughter is alone with my in-laws. Also, is there a way to present the Catholic teaching to my in-laws without either alienating them or having them dismiss it as unimportant? As I understand it, the Church stresses the importance of infant baptism but leaves it up to an Ever-Merciful God to find a way to work around it when an infant is not baptized. My in-laws will likely see this as a reason to not baptize since God will take care of it, anyway. Suggestions?

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I suggest you have a conversation about it next time things come up. It is possible to be polite and respectful towards them and tell them what the church teaches, without watering it down. Just state the facts and let them think about it. It is important we always keep in mind that we can’t convert people, the Holy Spirit does that. You can educate them and plant a seed. Hopefully it will bear fruit one day.

 

[Farsight001]

I would tell them you don’t appreciate them grilling your child. Their child found a book on their own, read it on their own, and asked questions about it to your daughter on their own. Meanwhile, they came together, ganged up on your daughter, and grilled her. No matter how you look at it, that’s not acceptable. They should have come to you and you should tell them firmly (but charitably), that in the future, they will come to you, or they will not be coming to anyone at all.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Infant baptism is practiced by the Catholic Church (Eastern and Western). the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and most Protestant denominations. Those against it are definitely in the minority.

Among the Protestants who baptize infants are the Anglican Communion, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, the Church of the Nazarene, the Reformed Church in America, the United Church of Christ (UCC), and the Continental Reformed.

Protestant groups that reject infant baptism include Baptists, Anabaptists, most Pentecostals, Mennonites, Amish, Community of Christ, Plymouth Brethren, Seventh-day Adventists, most non-denominational churches and other Arminian denominations.

Infant baptism is also excluded by Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians and Latter-day Saints.

Why is there disagreement on this important doctrine? Because the New Testament does not answer the question. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches follow the teaching of the Apostles. Everything mankind needs to know about God and His plan of salvation is NOT written in a book.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher. He didn’t command anyone to write anything. The Bible is the product of the Catholic Church, guided by the Spirit. The New Testament was never meant to be read outside the Church who wrote it. It was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics.

The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings.

Jim Dandy

 

[Bearontherun]

Infant baptism is practiced by the Catholic Church (Eastern and Western). the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and most Protestant denominations. Those against it are definitely in the minority.

Among the Protestants who baptize infants are the Anglican Communion, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, the Church of the Nazarene, the Reformed Church in America, the United Church of Christ (UCC), and the Continental Reformed.

Protestant groups that reject infant baptism include Baptists, Anabaptists, most Pentecostals, Mennonites, Amish, Community of Christ, Plymouth Brethren, Seventh-day Adventists, most non-denominational churches and other Arminian denominations.

Infant baptism is also excluded by Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians and Latter-day Saints.

Why is there disagreement on this important doctrine? Because the New Testament does not answer the question. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches follow the teaching of the Apostles. Everything mankind needs to know about God and His plan of salvation is NOT written in a book.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher. He didn’t command anyone to write anything. The Bible is the product of the Catholic Church, guided by the Spirit. The New Testament was never meant to be read outside the Church who wrote it. It was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics.

The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings.

Jim Dandy

Awesome post!

 

[Castelan]

. The Bible is the product of the Catholic Church, guided by the Spirit. The New Testament was never meant to be read outside the Church who wrote it. It was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics.

The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings.

Jim Dandy

The Bible consists of both the Old Testament, written by Jews, and the New Testament, written by Christians. The Protestants are Christians too and they accept both Old and New Testaments. The Book is for them too, surely.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Awesome post!

Thanks! :tiphat: Much obliged.

For puzzlelover and y’all,

Here’s an example of arguments by Protestants against the Catholic Church, but also against other Protestants on the question of infant baptism

This writer reads the NT and concludes that it does support infant baptism; others read the same NT and conclude that it doesn’t. :whacky:

The Catholic Church has been baptizing infants since she was founded by Christ in A.D. 33 – long before she selected, collected, canonized, and named the New Testament.

mbrem123.com/baptism/defense.php

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

The Bible consists of both the Old Testament, written by Jews, and the New Testament, written by Christians. The Protestants are Christians too and they accept both Old and New Testaments. The Book is for them too, surely.

Most Protestants do not accept all of the OT. However, they accept the NT. I can’t imagine why, since they reject the Church that wrote it. .But most don’t know where we got the Bible.

The NT was written by leaders of the Catholic Church for members of the Church. It wasn’t written for outsiders. Examine the introduction of each of the writings and see to whom it was addressed. I’ve already done this, and I would post it but we’re way off topic and the mods are gonna scold us. Want to start a new thread? Or I could send it to you by PM.

Look at the results of Luther’s separation of the Book from the Church that wrote it and his declaration of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Only) – thousands of conflicting and competing denominations, each with one or more doctrines or practices that differ from every other denomination, all based on the same incomplete Bible cut by Martin Luther, but no two of them agree about what the Bible means. Oy veh!

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[SteveVH]

Why is there disagreement on this important doctrine? Because the New Testament does not answer the question. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches follow the teaching of the Apostles. Everything mankind needs to know about God and His plan of salvation is NOT written in a book.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher. He didn’t command anyone to write anything. The Bible is the product of the Catholic Church, guided by the Spirit. The New Testament was never meant to be read outside the Church who wrote it. It was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics.

The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings.

Jim Dandy

Jim, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote, but the bible does tell us that baptism has replaced circumcision and as everyone is aware, circumcision, for the most part was performed on infants. There are also other scriptural passages that at least imply infant baptism, so I would say that the Bible does address the question.

I agree with the others. Awesome post.

 

[SteveGC]

I would tell them you don’t appreciate them grilling your child. Their child found a book on their own, read it on their own, and asked questions about it to your daughter on their own. Meanwhile, they came together, ganged up on your daughter, and grilled her. No matter how you look at it, that’s not acceptable. They should have come to you and you should tell them firmly (but charitably), that in the future, they will come to you, or they will not be coming to anyone at all.

Not that the other posts so far aren’t good…but this is the best post, and best advice, for this particular issue.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote, but the bible does tell us that baptism has replaced circumcision and as everyone is aware, circumcision, for the most part was performed on infants. There are also other scriptural passages that at least imply infant baptism, so I would say that the Bible does address the question.

I agree with the others. Awesome post.

If it’s clear in the Bible, why do some Sola Scriptura Protestants accept it, arguing that it is biblical, and others reject it, arguing that it is not? Implication doesn’t count for most Protestants – at least, ones I know. The Church finds it implied in her Scriptures and in her Tradition. But it’s deduced from Scripture, not clearly stated. That’s what I meant. Sorry if I failed to make that point.

 

[Catholic1954]

This has been a sticky situation for us.

My husband’s family is not Catholic and lives out of state. When we were all together recently, my nine-year-old niece was reading our Catholic Children’s Treasure Box books. I was not trying to convert her and had not left them in a prominent place, but she found them among some of of our homeschooling books. She read them and was disturbed by the stories of “Wupsy,” a guardian angel who has the honor of being assigned to the only baptized baby in a small African village.

As an unbaptized Protestant, my niece was bothered about the emphasis on infant baptism. She proceeded to ask my 14-year-old daughter about it. Having been homeschooled all her life, my daughter has practically memorized the Baltimore Catechism and was able to answer some questions. When my sister-in-law found out about the whole situation, she and my mother-in-law proceeded to question my daughter in great detail about the Church’s teaching on infant baptism. She came to me afterward and was upset because she felt that she had not given an adequate explanation of the doctrine.

What would be the best way to handle these situations where our Faith conflicts with theirs? I don’t want to cause problems, but these issues seem to come up every time my daughter is alone with my in-laws. Also, is there a way to present the Catholic teaching to my in-laws without either alienating them or having them dismiss it as unimportant? As I understand it, the Church stresses the importance of infant baptism but leaves it up to an Ever-Merciful God to find a way to work around it when an infant is not baptized. My in-laws will likely see this as a reason to not baptize since God will take care of it, anyway. Suggestions?

Tell your daughter that if they try to talk to her alone about religion again, that she should come and get you and your husband and all five of you can sit down and have a discussion and an exchange of ideas, without one trying to “convert” the other. You might want to buy a copy of “Catholicism for Dummies” and give it to them to take home and read.

 

[hn160]

Infant baptism is practiced by the Catholic Church (Eastern and Western). the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and most Protestant denominations. Those against it are definitely in the minority.

Among the Protestants who baptize infants are the Anglican Communion, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, the Church of the Nazarene, the Reformed Church in America, the United Church of Christ (UCC), and the Continental Reformed.

Protestant groups that reject infant baptism include Baptists, Anabaptists, most Pentecostals, Mennonites, Amish, Community of Christ, Plymouth Brethren, Seventh-day Adventists, most non-denominational churches and other Arminian denominations.

Infant baptism is also excluded by Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians and Latter-day Saints.

Why is there disagreement on this important doctrine? Because the New Testament does not answer the question. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches follow the teaching of the Apostles. Everything mankind needs to know about God and His plan of salvation is NOT written in a book.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher. He didn’t command anyone to write anything. The Bible is the product of the Catholic Church, guided by the Spirit. The New Testament was never meant to be read outside the Church who wrote it. It was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics.

The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings.

Jim Dandy

Our pastor likes to have the infant baptized by the eighth day after birth or sooner if the infant is in danger. He will go to the hospital to do it special.

 

[Castelan]

Referring back to the original post, I can see that it might be a bit of a strain for a 14 year old to be grilled on her faith by those who don’t share the same faith. After all, no teenager wants to be put through an exam every time she meets up with the extended family, be the exam about religion or even how to prepare a sandwich. What I don’t understand is how a friendly discussion about diverse views on infant baptism should cause any problems of any sort. Whether Catholics or Protestants, we are all nonetheless Christians, and in spite of old and even violent misunderstandings, we are now at the stage where a sharing and understanding of each other’s points of view shouldn’t cause strife and may even broaden our horizons sufficiently to see that though there may be differences, they are neither dramatic nor insurmountable. I really cannot see the problem. Unless, of course, there are things going on in America between the faiths of which I’m unaware. Are there?

 

[Puzzlelover]

Thank you all for your responses. My husband and I were out of town at the time and so were unable to facilitate the discussion between my in-laws and daughter. I’m considering having my daughter just say that she can’t speak about religious doctrine without her parents present.

I appreciate all the historical and Biblical support for infant baptism. In addition to that, can anyone suggest a concise explanation of what the Church teaches with regards to children that die without baptism? Does this fall under the category of adults who, through no fault of their own, are not Christians? Obviously it is not the same as an unbaptized infant who has never committed actual sin.

 

[SteveVH]

Thank you all for your responses. My husband and I were out of town at the time and so were unable to facilitate the discussion between my in-laws and daughter. I’m considering having my daughter just say that she can’t speak about religious doctrine without her parents present.

I appreciate all the historical and Biblical support for infant baptism. In addition to that, can anyone suggest a concise explanation of what the Church teaches with regards to children that die without baptism? Does this fall under the category of adults who, through no fault of their own, are not Christians? Obviously it is not the same as an unbaptized infant who has never committed actual sin.

My understanding is that “Limbo” was an answer to a theological quandry. On one hand, baptism is required in order to be saved because it effects an ontological change in our being. Original sin took away the supernatural (above nature) character of our being leaving us with a “fallen nature” in which we tend toward sin (concupiscence) . Baptism is required in that it infuses supernatural life into our souls, restoring that which was lost. On the other hand, we have the most innocent of all human beings. The Church relies on a merciful God to save this child. Only He knows whether or not that child, who otherwise is completely innocent of sin, would have desired baptism. We are confident that these children are with God. I think of the scourge of abortion and the millions of babies who never had a chance to be baptized but rather were tossed into a biohazard garbage can. Our God is just and merciful, that we know for certain, and that is what I would rely on.

The following is what the Catechism has to say on the matter:

"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me and do not hinder them’, allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism." (CCC par 1261)