Unbaptized infants

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joehar:
Where in the word of God is baptism of an infant mentioned ? its like babies that are aborted they still go to heaven they werent baptized. also i dont want to hear about the catholic bible.

Thanks:D
Why is that? You prefer the condensed Protestant version from the 16th century? Why settle for the Readers Digest version when you can have the entire Bible?
 
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mrsarchieleach:
Where can these funeral rites be found of which you have spoken? Can we, the laity, gain access to them to see the difference in wording and prayers? Can the infant funeral rite be used for miscarried children? I am curious to know if these include burial rites - what if there is no body or fetal remains (as in the case of many first trimester miscarriages - the baby is often reabsorbed)?

Also, I’m afraid that a question that I asked a while back got over looked - perhaps you or someone might know the answer: I was told by a priest that the Pope has said (I don’t know where - the priest did not reference it for me and I am wanting to know this) that miscarried babies are in heaven and the priest kind of seemed surprised that I didn’t aleady know this because I had expressed to him that I hope my two miscarried babies are in heaven and that I’m hoping that I make it to heaven so that I can see them some day (since no one can be truly assurred of heaven, even St. Paul hoped he endured to the end). A different priest seemed sure that I would see my two children in heaven. This kind of talk seems not quite in line with the teaching that we truly don’t know the fate of these babies and that we must rely on God’s mercy - that there is not absolute certainty. Why do people talk like there is certainty (I hope it’s not to “make the mourner feel better”) and that these babies are now little angels in heaven (that is not even accurate Church teaching). It seems that folks often have this idea that all you need is the belief, the faith belief and you are destined for heaven - the “we’re all sinners and fall short and that will never change - we’re never going to be perfect, so we have to have the faith in Christ who died for us - that alone will save us” kind of theology. I am a convert to Catholicism from a Protestant background and it seems like the “faith alone” theology of Martin Luther is just as common among many Catholics.

I very much do realize that innocent babies are not in the same situation as those of us beyond the age of reason but my point revolves around the degree to which we can have absolute certainty regarding this issue - salvation is a difficult issue to tackle, at any stage of life, with absolute certainty, it would appear (St. Paul, I think, would agree). We should never presume to know with certainty where we are destined to live out our eternity or our babies for that matter - that in itself seems to be sinful - an act of pride - to think one can know the mind of God. What we must do is have the hope of God’s mercy and that is something that our faith teaches us - to have hope that an all- loving God that willed these little babies into existence for only a short, short time would not damn them to Hell for all eternity because they did not live long enough to receive baptism. Am I way off base here?
They can be found in the Book of Rites. Yes ask your pastor to see his. Yes these Rites can be applied to all who have died. A “Funeral” Rite without a body present is a “Memorial”.

The rest of your post which I inserted parts of above is right on.

One thing is for certain, that unbaptized children who die before the age of Reason are NOT condemned to the punishments of Hell and do do not suffer any Temporal punishment in Purgatory.

As to the quote by JPII I don’t know.

We don’t know but we have hope!
 
The church teaches that we are to trust in the mercy of God…I personally believe that unbaptized babies who die go straight to God…How could it be otherwise? Jesus called the little ones to himself, and they are totally innocent. No parent who loses an unbaptized baby/child to death shoud ever have to worry about that child’s salvation…It is not a child’s fault if he/she is not baptized…
 
My belief is that Baptism is not a requirement for salvation, its a command from Jesus to be baptised, and He lead by example. It speaks of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we identify with Him in this way in baptism. But it always happens after conversion.

I have a daughter that died, and I have no doubt as to where she is.

Thanks and God Bless

Poppins
 
<<< have a daughter that died, and I have no doubt as to where she is.>>>

Neither do I, Poppins…
 
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joehar:
Where in the word of God is baptism of an infant mentioned ? its like babies that are aborted they still go to heaven they werent baptized. also i dont want to hear about the catholic bible.

Thanks:D
We would rather not hear about the protestant bible either.
 
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poppins:
My belief is that Baptism is not a requirement for salvation, its a command from Jesus to be baptised, and He lead by example. It speaks of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we identify with Him in this way in baptism. But it always happens after conversion.

I have a daughter that died, and I have no doubt as to where she is.

Thanks and God Bless

Poppins
Most Protestants especially Baptists believe as you do. However the Catholic Church has always taught and currently teaches in the current Catechism the “necessity of Baptism” . The Catholic Church also teaches the Doctrine of Original SIn. Which I’m sure you as most other Protestants don’t accept. Salvation is NOT by Faith alone.

I’m just curious, what denomination are you from Popins and CD4? Does your church teach that anyone who dies before the age of 12 is considered innocent of any sin and is automatically justified before God because of this?
 
Friendly dialogue between faiths is a MUST

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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mrsarchieleach:
Also, I’m afraid that a question that I asked a while back got over looked - perhaps you or someone might know the answer:** I was told by a priest that the Pope has said (I don’t know where - the priest did not reference it for me and I am wanting to know this) that miscarried babies are in heaven and the priest kind of seemed surprised that I didn’t aleady know this because I had expressed to him that I hope my two miscarried babies are in heaven and that I’m hoping that I make it to heaven so that I can see them some day (since no one can be truly assurred of heaven, even St. Paul hoped he endured to the end). A different priest seemed sure that I would see my two children in heaven. ** This kind of talk seems not quite in line with the teaching that we truly don’t know the fate of these babies and that we must rely on God’s mercy
Bolded by me.

This quote you are talking about, can it be this from Evangelium Vitae, 99:
I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord.
Bolded by me.
Link to the document is here.

Here the Pope is clearly talking about aborted babies who I assume haven’t had the chance to be baptised.
 
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Teresa9:
Friendly dialogue between faiths is a MUST
I agree with you, but now that I have learned more about Catholicism and infallibility, if I am to remain obedient I suppose I need to add the following caveat:

Friendly dialogue between faiths is a MUST, just as long as we make it clear (at least to ourselves) that we are the ones who are RIGHT and they are WRONG.

(I’d put in a big grin and/or a wink, but for some reason the emoticon downloads aren’t working. I think “somebody” must not be happy with what I’m doing with this computer.)

Alan
 
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Sunniva:
Here the Pope is clearly talking about aborted babies who I assume haven’t had the chance to be baptised.
Dear Sunniva,

I agree that’s what he’s talking about, and with his assertion the babies are in heaven.

It is tempting to conclude, then, that baptism, even baptism by desire, is not absolutely necessary in 100% of the cases for a child to make it into heaven. Either that or is it the prayers of the faithful for the aborted that get them into heaven? And if that’s the case, I would think that with all the people around the world who pray for unbaptized infants in general, then “baptism by desire” will effectively kick in whenever there hasn’t been a baptism. Thereby in terms of a baby getting into heaven, baptism is a formality.

(ducking for cover now)

I don’t know why I’m in such a weird mood. I just got back from adoration where I spent part of the time reading a book by Saint Pio. I wish I could talk to Pio and find out if he thought I was a saint, a demon, or somewhere in between.

Alan
 
Sunniva,

You inserted this quote from the Pope below regarding my question:
You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord.

This could very well be the reference. I am assuming that the Pope would see this in light of all unborn babies that have died, as mine were lost to miscarrige. I wonder what the Pope is basing this statement on - Bible passages, Tradition… I am hoping to be able to ask this priest again about what he told me but I wanted to see if I could find the reference on my own through these forums first.

Thanks for your help!
God Bless!
 
Dearest Alan

(I’m laughing!!!) 😉 is that what the computer wouldn’t let you do???or was it this:D , or even this …:tiphat: …or maybe this:rotfl: …(I am just showing off now!!)

Take care

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear Br. Rich,
Thanks for your help offered in the below comments to my questions - very much appreciated - sorry for the delay in responding - a bit crazy around here this week!

God bless!

*They can be found in the Book of Rites. Yes ask your pastor to see his. Yes these Rites can be applied to all who have died. A “Funeral” Rite without a body present is a “Memorial”.

The rest of your post which I inserted parts of above is right on.

One thing is for certain, that unbaptized children who die before the age of Reason are NOT condemned to the punishments of Hell and do do not suffer any Temporal punishment in Purgatory.

As to the quote by JPII I don’t know.

We don’t know but we have hope!*
 
We lost babies to miscarriages too, and I’ve always believed that those babies are in heaven, and we hope to see them one day.

Had they lived to be born, we would have baptized them, so they were on their journey to baptism when they died. When I was a sponsor in the RCIA I read that a Catechumen who dies before receiving baptism is still presumed to have the benefits of baptism because they were going to be baptized (I suppose this is a baptism of desire?). So I always thought that since my husband and I certainly planned that our babies were going to be baptized, Our Gracious Lord would look on them the same way.

Also I entrusted each of them to Our Lady, so I know Jesus would smile on them when they were presented to Him in the arms of His Blessed Mother.

Someone said something about calling souls in heaven “angels”. I always say we have little angels in heaven praying for us, but they are NOT really angels. Angels are a different class of spiritual being from human souls. That is just a metaphor for their purity and innocence. So, unless someone truly doesn’t understand the difference between angels and human souls, I think saying that is just a sweet, old-fashioned way of saying they are in heaven. Let’s not get too hung up on semantics.
 
**Noie…I agree with everything you have said. I cannot see why anyone would think otherwise…Jesus called the little ones to himself, and forbid anyone to prevent them from approaching him. **

I understand about the “angel” thing. It is just sementics…
 
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Noie:
We lost babies to miscarriages too, and I’ve always believed that those babies are in heaven, and we hope to see them one day.

Had they lived to be born, we would have baptized them, so they were on their journey to baptism when they died. When I was a sponsor in the RCIA I read that a Catechumen who dies before receiving baptism is still presumed to have the benefits of baptism because they were going to be baptized (I suppose this is a baptism of desire?). So I always thought that since my husband and I certainly planned that our babies were going to be baptized, Our Gracious Lord would look on them the same way.

Also I entrusted each of them to Our Lady, so I know Jesus would smile on them when they were presented to Him in the arms of His Blessed Mother.

Someone said something about calling souls in heaven “angels”. I always say we have little angels in heaven praying for us, but they are NOT really angels. Angels are a different class of spiritual being from human souls. That is just a metaphor for their purity and innocence. So, unless someone truly doesn’t understand the difference between angels and human souls, I think saying that is just a sweet, old-fashioned way of saying they are in heaven. Let’s not get too hung up on semantics.
Just so everyone understands. An ADULT who goes through the Rite of Acceptance. Makes a personal and public statement of their desire to go on towards Baptism at the Easter Vigil. A Catechumen (one who has gone through the Rite of Acceptance) is given a Christian burial if they die suddenly before being able to receive Baptism. An adult who is in Inquiry and has NOT gone through the Rite of Acceptance cannot receive Christian burial Rites. As I said above one person cannot Desire Sacramental graces for another person.
 
Someone said that there are three types of teachings in the Catholic Church:

What the Church actually teaches.
What we think the Church teaches.
What we would like the Church to teach.
 
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mary.elder:
Would the babies not go to purgatory like the rest of us?
No, because Purgatory is a “place or state” where the temporal punishment left over from forgiven personal sins is cleansed and the soul prefected. Infants do not have any personal sin. Only Original sin which does not carry any temporal punishment.
 
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