Unbelievers Are Condemned?

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… the way in which it was presented may be a barrier to your actual conversion. Given that you do not have control over how the message is presented, you might not be to blame for not coming to know Jesus. Hence, even though you’ve heard of Him, you are still completely ignorant to His Gospel, and therefore may continue to be invincibly ignorant.
It is indeed an open question as to whether or not a person in Western society could, without culpability, doubt that there are any good Catholics at all, or to refrain from reasonably concluding that twenty bad ones don’t make Catholicism false.

Don’t forget that taking scandal is a sin, and could be a mortal sin to boot. Likewise, I don’t find it reasonable to conclude that a normal mind would be so terribly offended by simple rudeness that they are psychologically incapable of pursuing truth. Extreme trauma, such as being the victim of extreme sexual sins, is another scenario, and would be a better illustration.

I mention this because, while we can construct all sorts of theoretical scenarios of apparent invincible ignorance, the fact is that those who reject Christ after hearing of Him are in an extremely problematic state for the present. Perhaps they will be excused, perhaps they will be converted before their death, but their state of rejection should be troubling to us nonetheless.
 
God has also given actual grace. He nudges everyone to Him. So no one who has rejected that nudging can be saved.
It is an open question whether or not those who are saved are saved through efficacious grace that is different from sufficient grace and, if it is, how God determines to give such efficacious grace to one individual but not to another. It is also an open question whether sufficient grace merely because efficacious grace, and how precisely this process works out. So all of this is highly theoretical.
 
God has also given actual grace. He nudges everyone to Him. So no one who has rejected that nudging can be saved.
Again, this may or may not be true. I’m not sure if you’re purposefully ignoring my posts or if you’re just missing them, but invincible ignorance is an incredibly complex subject. Blanket statements really do not work well. All we know is taht if someone knows of Christ’s Gospel and chooses to reject it, they are lost. We cannot say if someone knows or not, that’s God’s prerogative.
 
I mention this because, while we can construct all sorts of theoretical scenarios of apparent invincible ignorance, the fact is that those who reject Christ after hearing of Him are in an extremely problematic state for the present. Perhaps they will be excused, perhaps they will be converted before their death, but their state of rejection should be troubling to us nonetheless.
I have relatives who are intelligent people who just do not find the logic convincing that there is a prime mover or a first cause to all we know and see in the world/universe/multiverse/cosmos/etc.

They don’t feel they have any grounds to believe in a supernatural origin of life, matter, and so on.

They also use the evil in the world as an argument against the existence of a good creator.
 
Again, this may or may not be true. I’m not sure if you’re purposefully ignoring my posts or if you’re just missing them, but invincible ignorance is an incredibly complex subject. Blanket statements really do not work well. All we know is taht if someone knows of Christ’s Gospel and chooses to reject it, they are lost. We cannot say if someone knows or not, that’s God’s prerogative.
And you seem to be ignoring mine.
 
And you seem to be ignoring mine.
I haven’t ignored anything you’ve said. I’ve responded to every post. I literally couldn’t be more attentive to what you’re saying. This post, again, doesn’t address anything I’ve said. It’s an attempt at deflection.
 
I haven’t ignored anything you’ve said. I’ve responded to every post. I literally couldn’t be more attentive to what you’re saying. This post, again, doesn’t address anything I’ve said. It’s an attempt at deflection.
Invincible ignorance DOESN’T mean negligence:
Invincible ignorance is due to being unable to know, not due to negligence.

Summa Theologica, I, II, Q76, A2:

I answer that, Ignorance differs from nescience, in that nescience denotes mere absence of knowledge; wherefore whoever lacks knowledge about anything, can be said to be nescient about it: in which sense Dionysius puts nescience in the angels (Coel. Hier. vii). On the other hand, ignorance denotes privation of knowledge, i.e. lack of knowledge of those things that one has a natural aptitude to know. Some of these we are under an obligation to know, those, to wit, without the knowledge of which we are unable to accomplish a due act rightly. Wherefore all are bound in common to know the articles of faith, and the universal principles of right, and each individual is bound to know matters regarding his duty or state. Meanwhile there are other things which a man may have a natural aptitude to know, yet he is not bound to know them, such as the geometrical theorems, and contingent particulars, except in some individual case. Now it is evident that whoever neglects to have or do what he ought to have or do, commits a sin of omission. Wherefore through negligence, ignorance of what one is bound to know, is a sin; whereas it is not imputed as a sin to man, if he fails to know what he is unable to know. Consequently ignorance of such like things is called “invincible,” because it cannot be overcome by study. For this reason such like ignorance, not being voluntary, since it is not in our power to be rid of it, is not a sin: wherefore it is evident that no invincible ignorance is a sin. On the other hand, vincible ignorance is a sin, if it be about matters one is bound to know; but not, if it be about things one is not bound to know.
 
And you’re all ignoring mine, and I’m the original poster with the question.
 
Invincible ignorance DOESN’T mean negligence:
I never said it did. No one’s said that. Our point has been that merely hearing the Gospel doesn’t actually obligate you to believe it if it’s presented in such a way that would make it difficult to impossible for you to accept it as true.

If someone willingly refuses to learn or to seek truth, then yeah, there’s not a lot of hope for them.
 
I have relatives who are intelligent people who just do not find the logic convincing that there is a prime mover or a first cause to all we know and see in the world/universe/multiverse/cosmos/etc.
It depends on why they don’t find it convincing. If it’s because of a legitimate intellectual argument, then there might be validity to their concerns. If, on the other hand, it’s because they just don’t want to believe it, and as such simply say that it doesn’t make sense, then they would likely be culpable for it.

I’ve honestly never heard a legitimate argument against the Prime Mover, only supposition and illogical assertions (such as an infinitely looping universe, which I discus in detail further into the post.)
They don’t feel they have any grounds to believe in a supernatural origin of life, matter, and so on.
Don’t start with the supernatural aspect of the question, first you have to lead them to see that created reality (our reality) had a start. Once they’re willing to admit that then you can start working towards what caused the universe.

Don’t start with God, start with the observable world.

If they try to claim that the universe had no start, that flies in the face of all known science, which all points towards a definite start. If the try to claim that there has been an infinite loop of universe, where each universe destroys itself and creates the next universe, point out to them that no matter how long a given loop of events has been occurring, something must have set it in motion, necessitating a first instance of our universe, therefore necessitating and external cause. The universe could not have created itself prior to its own existence, so there had to be a first universe that set the loop in motion.
They also use the evil in the world as an argument against the existence of a good creator.
This is probably the best argument against God, but it is not insurmountable. Trent Horn’s book Answering Atheism covers this topic in some detail. I can almost guarantee they won’t accept the answer, but that doesn’t actually make the answer invalid or prove that an answer does not exist.

The step to move from not believing in God to believing in Him is a big one, and many times no number of legitimate proofs will be enough for someone who doesn’t want to believe.
 
I never said it did. No one’s said that. Our point has been that merely hearing the Gospel doesn’t actually obligate you to believe it if it’s presented in such a way that would make it difficult to impossible for you to accept it as true.

If someone willingly refuses to learn or to seek truth, then yeah, there’s not a lot of hope for them.
You said something to this effect.
If they have access to the Church’s teaching but it was presented poorly or incorrectly then their ignorance would be invincible.
 
You said something to this effect.
I said that if it were presented in such a a way as to turn them away from the Truth, then they may not be culpable for not seeking the truth further. I stand by this statement. There’s a difference between willful negligence, and having something presented in so awful a fashion that it seems unthinkable to you to believe it.

An example of this would be the actions of that particular anti-Semitic crusade leader who wiped out a Jewish village. Those Jews could hardly be blamed for failing to seek out the truth of Christianity after experiencing such horrors at the hands of supposed Christians.

I’m not saying it’s a guarantee, or that they won’t be held accountable, simply that the circumstances under which you are exposed to Christ may limit your culpability for not seeking further information. Again, this is not the same thing as willful negligence, which simply does not seek out truth because it would be a burden or because it might impose some change on the seeker’s life. (Or possibly out of sheer laziness…)

You should call CAL and ask them about these types of situations.
 
A second question is: How do we reconcile Mark 16:16 with what the CCC says about the possible salvation of those who do not have faith in Christ?
I wish someone would address this post. I would like to see how the two are reconciled. Thanks!
 
It depends on why they don’t find it convincing. If it’s because of a legitimate intellectual argument, then there might be validity to their concerns. If, on the other hand, it’s because they just don’t want to believe it, and as such simply say that it doesn’t make sense, then they would likely be culpable for it.

Thank you for your response. They say that we don’t know that the world has to have a cause. Just because, they say, we see things around us need a cause doesn’t mean the whole thing needs one.

At that point, I don’t know what to say.
 
I wish someone would address this post. I would like to see how the two are reconciled. Thanks!
I did address it, in this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14613300&postcount=17

I apologize for not making the connection more clear. Even I had trouble finding that post to respond here.

Jesus himself clearly states that knowledge is a requirement for sin.

John 15:21-24
21
And they will do all these things to you on account of my name,* because they do not know the one who sent me.
22
If I had not come and spoken* to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.
23
Whoever hates me also hates my Father.
24
If I had not done works among them that no one else ever did, they would not have sin; but as it is, they have seen and hated both me and my Father.
The Church’s historical understanding of Mark 16:16 works in tandem with Christ’s teaching on the necessity of knowledge for culpability.

The work Mark uses there for “does not believe” is ἀπιστέω, or apisteó. It refers not to a general lack of belief, but rather to a refusal to believe.

Here is a very brief study on the word:
biblehub.com/greek/569.htm

In short, Mark is not condemning anyone who simply does not have belief, because that may be out of their control. (Indeed, it was out of the control of anyone who lived prior to the time of Christ, or prior to the spread of the Gospel). He is referring specifically to those people who have been granted sufficient grace and knowledge to believe, but who obstinately refuse to due to some personal issue. (i.e. they don’t want to give up a particular sin they are fond of)

I hope this helps clear up the issue for you.
 

Thank you for your response. They say that we don’t know that the world has to have a cause. Just because, they say, we see things around us need a cause doesn’t mean the whole thing needs one.

At that point, I don’t know what to say.

Frankly, that’s just bad logic.

Every reaction has an action that causes it. What we see around us require a cause. Those causes themselves require a cause. So on an so forth, all the way back to the very beginning of the universe; that one moment at the start of time which set all other causes and effects in motion. There is nothing in the universe which can claim self-sufficiency (the lack of a cause). These people simply refusing to acknowledge the obvious because of the implications it would have for their lives. I apologize if this sounds harsh, but with this kind of willful ignorance, bluntness is frequently necessary.

Ask the person saying this to give you one example of a thing which has no cause.

If they try to circumvent the question by claiming that particles have been observed popping in an out of existence, remind them that those particles emerged in a low-level energy field, which is something, which itself demands a cause. I’ve had a number of atheist friends try to claim that this phenomenon (I believe it was observed in the large Hadrian collider) proves that the universe could have come from nothing. What they fail to realize is that a low-level energy field (which is necessary for the phenomenon to occur) is still something, which means that something did not come from nothing.

They may try to claim that the low-level energy field doesn’t demand a cause, but again, this is just bad logic. They are applying an exception to the field which violates all the laws of physics and science, and which is itself an unprovable (i.e., faith-based) assumption. Frankly, people who believe that have more faith than any Catholic I’ve ever met, because at least what we believe as Catholics coincides with reality and everything we’ve observed about it.

There’s a good chance that, even when they haven’t been able to come up with an example (because one doesn’t exist), they will simply say that that doesn’t prove anything, or that science will figure it out eventually. The first response is simply irrational denial. The second response is, again, an entirely faith-based response with no actual backing to it. In either case, sadly, I doubt they will actually be convinced at this point. Fortunately for you, the point is not to convince, it is to plant the seeds which will allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of the Truth eventually. If they are genuine seekers of Truth, eventually they will find their way to God.

I encourage you to pick up Answer Atheism. It covers this topic in more detail, and is an outstanding tool for anyone who regularly debates with Atheists, or who simply wishes to bolster their own knowledge about the reasons to believe. It’s simple enough for even the most novice apologist to read (i.m.o.), but has enough depth and substance for seasoned apologists to gain from.

In the end, I leave you with this quote from the Angelic Doctor, St. Thomas Aquinas:
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.
 
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